What do you do for the first 10 seconds after getting the stall shaker?

 

The issue is *RECOGNITION*... this does not present as a stereotypical trim runaway. Waiting some number of seconds to account for that is a reasonable approximation of that delayed recognition in the sim since the pilots in the sim tests knew exactly what was about to happen

 

But you’re flying the aircraft…if you get heavy control pressure you trim to compensate, which overrides the problem.

 

Recognition was determined by the FAA to be 4 seconds. They arbitrarily changed it to 10.

10 seconds is a really long time to sit in that seat and do nothing.

 

Fly the aircraft, start running appropriate memory items.

 

Finish licking the last of my cheese spread out of the container from my snack box

 

Like many here, I've flown the MAX before the grounding, repositioned them after the grounding, did the MAX RTS and been flying them post-grounding... I've also flown with foreign crews and seen their training and I have to say, I'm not at all surprised they crashed. These poor souls had no basis to build on as they were taught to be system operators and button pushers. They are also actively discouraged from handflying. I've witnessed in training abroad the almost unreasonable rush to just get the AP on, as if they were terrified of any handflying. I was even chastised by TRE's for not putting on the autopilot after reaching 400 feet and instead waiting to turn it on at around 4-5000 feet. During V1 cut, their first order of business before accelerating and cleaning up the plane is to turn the autopilot on. The juggling of trim vs. autopilot engagement was always too comical.

Part of the MAX RTS was demonstration of what happened and watching us handle the problem. They did it to us on departure from runway 1 at DCA so we had to follow the river while dealing with this. It was literally solved and stopped almost immediately. Both of us looked at the instructor and asked... that's it?! That's what brought down these 2 planes?? "That was it." Both of our reactions were YGTBFSM!!!!! No reason for these planes to have gone down. Now, that's not saying that Boeing is blameless here. Not by a long shot. But both of these accidents should have ended up with airplane parked at the gate with logbook write-ups and SDR's being filed. The comparison to a V1 cut are spot on. Are you gonna sit on your thumb for 10 seconds before reacting to a V1 cut? No. Not by a long shot.

These countries do not have a well-developed pipeline of experienced pilots and have in the past hired expats for a reason. But national politics are also a factor, as well as national pride. Yet, in the west, we've all but ignored all that.

 

Boeing forgot who they were selling airplanes to (airbus knew all along).

It probably would have been a long time before a US crew got into big trouble with a max, given that the initial operators are all top tier employers.

 

True statement. At the same time, you would think SOME basic airmanship or even basic survival instinct if nothing else, would come out. The thrust levers were left in TOGA all the way to the ground.

At what point do you expect SOME accountability of the culture and standards?

 

Two separate issues. My point is that these accidents wouldn’t have happened if these planes were crewed by competent pilots instead of system operators. The issue here isn’t just Boeing.