Originally Posted by RJSAviator76

Like many here, I've flown the MAX before the grounding, repositioned them after the grounding, did the MAX RTS and been flying them post-grounding... I've also flown with foreign crews and seen their training and I have to say, I'm not at all surprised they crashed. These poor souls had no basis to build on as they were taught to be system operators and button pushers. They are also actively discouraged from handflying. I've witnessed in training abroad the almost unreasonable rush to just get the AP on, as if they were terrified of any handflying. I was even chastised by TRE's for not putting on the autopilot after reaching 400 feet and instead waiting to turn it on at around 4-5000 feet. During V1 cut, their first order of business before accelerating and cleaning up the plane is to turn the autopilot on. The juggling of trim vs. autopilot engagement was always too comical.

Part of the MAX RTS was demonstration of what happened and watching us handle the problem. They did it to us on departure from runway 1 at DCA so we had to follow the river while dealing with this. It was literally solved and stopped almost immediately. Both of us looked at the instructor and asked... that's it?! That's what brought down these 2 planes?? "That was it." Both of our reactions were YGTBFSM!!!!! No reason for these planes to have gone down. Now, that's not saying that Boeing is blameless here. Not by a long shot. But both of these accidents should have ended up with airplane parked at the gate with logbook write-ups and SDR's being filed. The comparison to a V1 cut are spot on. Are you gonna sit on your thumb for 10 seconds before reacting to a V1 cut? No. Not by a long shot.

These countries do not have a well-developed pipeline of experienced pilots and have in the past hired expats for a reason. But national politics are also a factor, as well as national pride. Yet, in the west, we've all but ignored all that.

Originally Posted by Texasbound

Fly the aircraft, start running appropriate memory items.

Originally Posted by Nantonaku

What are your memory items?

Originally Posted by RJSAviator76

Like many here, I've flown the MAX before the grounding, repositioned them after the grounding, did the MAX RTS and been flying them post-grounding... I've also flown with foreign crews and seen their training and I have to say, I'm not at all surprised they crashed. These poor souls had no basis to build on as they were taught to be system operators and button pushers. They are also actively discouraged from handflying. I've witnessed in training abroad the almost unreasonable rush to just get the AP on, as if they were terrified of any handflying. I was even chastised by TRE's for not putting on the autopilot after reaching 400 feet and instead waiting to turn it on at around 4-5000 feet. During V1 cut, their first order of business before accelerating and cleaning up the plane is to turn the autopilot on. The juggling of trim vs. autopilot engagement was always too comical.

Part of the MAX RTS was demonstration of what happened and watching us handle the problem. They did it to us on departure from runway 1 at DCA so we had to follow the river while dealing with this. It was literally solved and stopped almost immediately. Both of us looked at the instructor and asked... that's it?! That's what brought down these 2 planes?? "That was it." Both of our reactions were YGTBFSM!!!!! No reason for these planes to have gone down. Now, that's not saying that Boeing is blameless here. Not by a long shot. But both of these accidents should have ended up with airplane parked at the gate with logbook write-ups and SDR's being filed. The comparison to a V1 cut are spot on. Are you gonna sit on your thumb for 10 seconds before reacting to a V1 cut? No. Not by a long shot.

These countries do not have a well-developed pipeline of experienced pilots and have in the past hired expats for a reason. But national politics are also a factor, as well as national pride. Yet, in the west, we've all but ignored all that.

Originally Posted by Seneca Pilot

Place drink in cup holder, put down magazine, turn down volume on Spotify. Hmmm let's see, there's some more after that I think. Oh, wake up FO.

Originally Posted by Nantonaku

Good post. I think on most things you make good points and are probably right. I just think the analogy to a V1 cut is terrible. All pilots are trained yearly on a V1 cut. No one gets trained on multiple failures that include a shaker and an MCAS failure at the same time. I’ve also heard from multiple sim instructors that have ran the scenario that it is a hand full. And they knew it was coming. Boeing had the stats to show how many crashes there were would be in the future. With the number of Maxes in the US there eventually would have been one here.

Originally Posted by ImSoSuss

Soon after the first crash a Legacy that will remain nameless put 15 crews in a SIM and unexpectedly gave them this failure. All of them crashed. Yes, the US has much higher training standards but lets not act like Boeing didn't have a major culpability in these crashes. Jail time was needed for some execs and program managers.

Originally Posted by nene

I thought a major contributor was that Boeing made the airspeed comparator circuit an "option" to these carriers, so that if that had been installed on either of these planes as a mandatory option, neither would have fired MCAS for an erroring airspeed indicator.

Originally Posted by hoover

I'm not sure why this keeps coming up... that it's a handful, people tried it and crashed etc?
Anyone who flys the max has been through RTS training where this exact scenario is performed and no one I know, including myself, thought it was anything but easy.
In these other examples are they not doing anything and letting it get to the very end before attempting to recover full nose down trim at 400kts+?
if so that is not a comparison its showing you that if you do nothing and aren't trained you can crash, duh.

Originally Posted by ImSoSuss

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It keeps coming up because it happened. Easy for you to MMQ years later and after countless investigations. These sims happened right after.