View Poll Results: How do you (reallyfeel about the current PWA?
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DAL/NWA 3: The PWA REQUIRED in 2012
02-03-2010 | 06:49 AM
#101
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One question...
To come back around to the DC rate differential between NW and DAL, am I correct that the problem goes away in the same year as we would be targeting a new contract? IOW, would a common DC rate actually be a mid-contract improvement?
02-03-2010 | 07:21 AM
#102
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From: Kickin’ Back
Yes I do believe the rate is the same for all as of 2012.
Everyone,
Now, to be self serving as far as retirement goes 'cause "it's all about me," what about the 1000,s and I do mean 1000's of fDAL guys who lost hundreds of thousands of already earned dollars EACH over the PBGC guarantee for retirement? To give you an example, I lost $50,000+ a year OVER the PBGC guarantee if I retired at age 60. This is what I had already earned in the now defunct DB plan. For those of you who will say the notes made up for it, you are sadly mistaken.
For all you young guys "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" if you get my drift!
Denny
02-03-2010 | 07:34 AM
#103
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Joined: Feb 2008
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[quote=Sink r8;75698
What happened to you sucks. No doubt about it. But it [I]happened[/I] already. And the union tried to compensate with the Note money. The attempt at clean-up has been made. Now, we have two choices: suck it up, and accept our fate, or make more attempts, each uglier than the other, and each, as Scambo said, with a clear potential to cost us, and cost us dearly.
My focus is on our future, not the past.
I would point out that retirement is the future for all pilots. A matrix has been used before at Delta. It was put into place to try and give every pilot the same retirement benefit. This was to insure a junior pilot got the same retirement as a senior pilot with the frozen DB plan. When the frozen DB plan was terminated many dead zone pilots were getting little or nothing in DC funding. They were told by the union that if the DB plan terminated then there would be a sort of reverse matrix to compensate for the years of low or zero funding. That matrix never came about however we did get the note.
The intitial distribution method on the note was to compensate pilots for the lost DB plan. They put together a set of assumptions on time value and investment performance over time to see where each pilot would end up retirement wise. They then ran the numbers based on those assumptions.
The result was really ugly for the junior pilots with the bottom half of the seniority list essentially getting nothing from the note. They decided despite the fact that the numbers supported this it was politically unacceptable. They then decided to plus each pilot up to 205,000 dollars FAE in the old frozen plan and rerun the numbers. Even with the plus up it was still ugly for the bottom half of the list. So they added yet another feature which was a years of service minimum. This produced the final method to distribute the money. It was a method that now had little to do with the original goal of providing each pilot a roughly equal retirement.
A similiar thing happened over at UAL. ALPA just settled a lawsuit over that at UAL for 44 million. There are rumors that a lawsuit will be filed against DALPA by the years end. A settlement of that lawsuit may require a matrix or cash payout. DALPA started with the attempt to clean things up with the note as you state but in the end abandoned that concept. There is still cleanup left to be done.
What happened to you sucks. No doubt about it. But it [I]happened[/I] already. And the union tried to compensate with the Note money. The attempt at clean-up has been made. Now, we have two choices: suck it up, and accept our fate, or make more attempts, each uglier than the other, and each, as Scambo said, with a clear potential to cost us, and cost us dearly.
My focus is on our future, not the past.
I would point out that retirement is the future for all pilots. A matrix has been used before at Delta. It was put into place to try and give every pilot the same retirement benefit. This was to insure a junior pilot got the same retirement as a senior pilot with the frozen DB plan. When the frozen DB plan was terminated many dead zone pilots were getting little or nothing in DC funding. They were told by the union that if the DB plan terminated then there would be a sort of reverse matrix to compensate for the years of low or zero funding. That matrix never came about however we did get the note.
The intitial distribution method on the note was to compensate pilots for the lost DB plan. They put together a set of assumptions on time value and investment performance over time to see where each pilot would end up retirement wise. They then ran the numbers based on those assumptions.
The result was really ugly for the junior pilots with the bottom half of the seniority list essentially getting nothing from the note. They decided despite the fact that the numbers supported this it was politically unacceptable. They then decided to plus each pilot up to 205,000 dollars FAE in the old frozen plan and rerun the numbers. Even with the plus up it was still ugly for the bottom half of the list. So they added yet another feature which was a years of service minimum. This produced the final method to distribute the money. It was a method that now had little to do with the original goal of providing each pilot a roughly equal retirement.
A similiar thing happened over at UAL. ALPA just settled a lawsuit over that at UAL for 44 million. There are rumors that a lawsuit will be filed against DALPA by the years end. A settlement of that lawsuit may require a matrix or cash payout. DALPA started with the attempt to clean things up with the note as you state but in the end abandoned that concept. There is still cleanup left to be done.
02-03-2010 | 07:48 AM
#104
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Joined: Sep 2008
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From: Kickin’ Back
Sailingfun,
I agree, it sucks. But I have moved on and will not lose any sleep over it. As alot of people are fond of saying "it is what it is." I was just trying to point out that there are ALOT of guys that lost ALOT of money and don't have ALOT of time to make it up.
The only other thing I would say is "those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
Denny
I agree, it sucks. But I have moved on and will not lose any sleep over it. As alot of people are fond of saying "it is what it is." I was just trying to point out that there are ALOT of guys that lost ALOT of money and don't have ALOT of time to make it up.
The only other thing I would say is "those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
Denny
02-03-2010 | 08:14 AM
#105
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I would point out that retirement is the future for all pilots. A matrix has been used before at Delta. It was put into place to try and give every pilot the same retirement benefit. This was to insure a junior pilot got the same retirement as a senior pilot with the frozen DB plan. When the frozen DB plan was terminated many dead zone pilots were getting little or nothing in DC funding. They were told by the union that if the DB plan terminated then there would be a sort of reverse matrix to compensate for the years of low or zero funding. That matrix never came about however we did get the note.
The intitial distribution method on the note was to compensate pilots for the lost DB plan. They put together a set of assumptions on time value and investment performance over time to see where each pilot would end up retirement wise. They then ran the numbers based on those assumptions.
The result was really ugly for the junior pilots with the bottom half of the seniority list essentially getting nothing from the note. They decided despite the fact that the numbers supported this it was politically unacceptable. They then decided to plus each pilot up to 205,000 dollars FAE in the old frozen plan and rerun the numbers. Even with the plus up it was still ugly for the bottom half of the list. So they added yet another feature which was a years of service minimum. This produced the final method to distribute the money. It was a method that now had little to do with the original goal of providing each pilot a roughly equal retirement.
A similiar thing happened over at UAL. ALPA just settled a lawsuit over that at UAL for 44 million. There are rumors that a lawsuit will be filed against DALPA by the years end. A settlement of that lawsuit may require a matrix or cash payout. DALPA started with the attempt to clean things up with the note as you state but in the end abandoned that concept. There is still cleanup left to be done.
The intitial distribution method on the note was to compensate pilots for the lost DB plan. They put together a set of assumptions on time value and investment performance over time to see where each pilot would end up retirement wise. They then ran the numbers based on those assumptions.
The result was really ugly for the junior pilots with the bottom half of the seniority list essentially getting nothing from the note. They decided despite the fact that the numbers supported this it was politically unacceptable. They then decided to plus each pilot up to 205,000 dollars FAE in the old frozen plan and rerun the numbers. Even with the plus up it was still ugly for the bottom half of the list. So they added yet another feature which was a years of service minimum. This produced the final method to distribute the money. It was a method that now had little to do with the original goal of providing each pilot a roughly equal retirement.
A similiar thing happened over at UAL. ALPA just settled a lawsuit over that at UAL for 44 million. There are rumors that a lawsuit will be filed against DALPA by the years end. A settlement of that lawsuit may require a matrix or cash payout. DALPA started with the attempt to clean things up with the note as you state but in the end abandoned that concept. There is still cleanup left to be done.
The Note was paid in consideration for concessions made. I actually took the trouble to ask MEC members whether it was a retirement offset. The answer was that it could not possibly be a retirement offset, because the PBGC would have a valid claim to it. Then two events occured:
1) The value of the Claim, which noone expected to be worth anything, was run up inadvertently by Doug Parker's hostile takeover attempt. That put a lot of money in everyone's pocket.
2) The PBGC settled.
This laid open the door for some recovery with the Note, and the very money that I was told was not, and could not be, a retirement offset, became "retirement-related".
I don't begrudge that attempt to make people whole, even if I ended up taking a bath on the distribution. I guess my error is that I'm too young. You forget to mention that, even after the very last step, the result was STILL ugly for the lower half. But I guess some very senior guys threatened to sue, and I think the top payout was $475 K, with most of my captains getting in the $250 K's, while I got $23K or so.
And nobody likes to be 23K'd...
So, while I believe the final use of the Note was contrary to the way it was marketed when we voted for LOA 51 (and that the PBGC was duped), I'm at least glad there was enough money available to make the attempt to make people whole.
Now, to come back around to the matrix, there were many problems, but one of the most bizarre aspects was that it discriminated based on age, not just LOS. I had guys in my own new-hire getting about 3 times more money. There is no moral justification for this. If they got hired at a later age, it's not my fault. Chances are, the by-product is that they built another retirement, somewhere else.
So, if there are lawsuits, it isn't because the DC plan distribution is unfair.
I've been hearing for a very long time that the UAL distribution was grossly unfair, and that there were extraordinary differences in distribution, like ratios of as much as 400K:5K. I don't think we went down that road. I think we laid out a clear rationale to our process, and we tried explicitly to sell the Note distribution as a rectification for "retirement-related" concessions. This as part of LOA 51, which also put down the matrix. And everything else forward was distributed with a common DC rate. This is the system we chose to avoid the problems experienced at UAL. It's the system that was presented as fair. It's not the sytem I was sold when I voted for LOA 51, but... I guess it's good enough. Let's move on.
02-03-2010 | 08:15 AM
#106
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From: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
That MDG and TAFB/3 add in a few Reserve improvements...Done!
Then its just Ironclad Scope and Pay...
Cheers
George
02-03-2010 | 08:17 AM
#107
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Joined: May 2005
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From: Guppy Commander
I agree. It's a built-in whipsaw tool, and it may be strictly a passive exercise to management, when we negotiate, to throw in the occasional "but we're already spending X million a year on the NW retirement...". If we're stupid enough, we'll let that stop us.
Nothing works quite as well as worrying about what your fellow pilot gets, in terms of making sure none of us get anything good. Which is why the only solution is to suck it up, accept the fact the NW guys have a frozen DB plan, just like there are still "Western-only" and (I think) "Pan-Am only" provisions in our contract.
Otherwise, then you have to do a lot of slicing-and-dicing, to try to make it "fair". Check Essential made a good point about what deadzoners will want:
The matrix isn't an innocent tool. It's a way to take common money, and steer it one way or another. This can be done along age lines, or expectations, or LOS, or any number of ways. Each of those ways is far more destructive than another.
When you ask for the matrix, you're not just trying to address a disparity you perceive between N/S, but between you and me, and every subgroup. You're creating a landscape for division.
What happened to you sucks. No doubt about it. But it happened already. And the union tried to compensate with the Note money. The attempt at clean-up has been made. Now, we have two choices: suck it up, and accept our fate, or make more attempts, each uglier than the other, and each, as Scambo said, with a clear potential to cost us, and cost us dearly.
My focus is on our future, not the past. Everyone has a significant issue in their past. Mine has to do with losing 100% of my income for three years, and everyone else negotiating away botht the NFC, and the recall schedule. But I've taken my lumps, and accepted them as a part of my past. Luckily, the "redeeming" aspect of losing your retirement is that it was done because of a run on the bank. The pilots that took their lump sum are no longer in your way.The exodus allowed you to move up, and me to be recalled. Never have we had such young ER captains. When you factor in that adavancement, and the Note, and the DC contributions, with potentially better payrates, better workrules for ALL, then we ALL have a shot at a better future.
Nothing works quite as well as worrying about what your fellow pilot gets, in terms of making sure none of us get anything good. Which is why the only solution is to suck it up, accept the fact the NW guys have a frozen DB plan, just like there are still "Western-only" and (I think) "Pan-Am only" provisions in our contract.
Otherwise, then you have to do a lot of slicing-and-dicing, to try to make it "fair". Check Essential made a good point about what deadzoners will want:
The matrix isn't an innocent tool. It's a way to take common money, and steer it one way or another. This can be done along age lines, or expectations, or LOS, or any number of ways. Each of those ways is far more destructive than another.
When you ask for the matrix, you're not just trying to address a disparity you perceive between N/S, but between you and me, and every subgroup. You're creating a landscape for division.
What happened to you sucks. No doubt about it. But it happened already. And the union tried to compensate with the Note money. The attempt at clean-up has been made. Now, we have two choices: suck it up, and accept our fate, or make more attempts, each uglier than the other, and each, as Scambo said, with a clear potential to cost us, and cost us dearly.
My focus is on our future, not the past. Everyone has a significant issue in their past. Mine has to do with losing 100% of my income for three years, and everyone else negotiating away botht the NFC, and the recall schedule. But I've taken my lumps, and accepted them as a part of my past. Luckily, the "redeeming" aspect of losing your retirement is that it was done because of a run on the bank. The pilots that took their lump sum are no longer in your way.The exodus allowed you to move up, and me to be recalled. Never have we had such young ER captains. When you factor in that adavancement, and the Note, and the DC contributions, with potentially better payrates, better workrules for ALL, then we ALL have a shot at a better future.
02-03-2010 | 08:17 AM
#108
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Sailingfun,
I agree, it sucks. But I have moved on and will not lose any sleep over it. As alot of people are fond of saying "it is what it is." I was just trying to point out that there are ALOT of guys that lost ALOT of money and don't have ALOT of time to make it up.
The only other thing I would say is "those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
Denny
I agree, it sucks. But I have moved on and will not lose any sleep over it. As alot of people are fond of saying "it is what it is." I was just trying to point out that there are ALOT of guys that lost ALOT of money and don't have ALOT of time to make it up.
The only other thing I would say is "those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
Denny
02-03-2010 | 08:20 AM
#109
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Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Top
Yeah, that's why I wouldn't push too hard for either '04 + COL or the old work rules. Such a position would be laughably unrealistic. I'd be fine with straight '04 and the current rules.
02-03-2010 | 08:22 AM
#110
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My apologies. Just so we're clear, I don't want to get fixated on what any NW pilot has in terms of retirement, whether you do or don't have a frozen DB.
I want us ALL to have a high DC contribution. I don't want want to try to offset the money any NW pilot might get via a DB fund: I want management to fund that, just as they fund the CEO retirement, and the F/A retirement, or as they service the debt, as a normal course of doing business. Every time they bring up retirement funding at the negotiating table, we should decline to discuss liabilities that they assumed in the merger.
...but of course that doesn't work when we're trying to steer money one way or another. When you're negotiating details about who gets what within pilot ranks, you're hopelessly divided, and you're [deleted] before you even get started. I would prefer the negotiation on DC contribution to be pretty short, and focused on a common % increase only.
I want us ALL to have a high DC contribution. I don't want want to try to offset the money any NW pilot might get via a DB fund: I want management to fund that, just as they fund the CEO retirement, and the F/A retirement, or as they service the debt, as a normal course of doing business. Every time they bring up retirement funding at the negotiating table, we should decline to discuss liabilities that they assumed in the merger.
...but of course that doesn't work when we're trying to steer money one way or another. When you're negotiating details about who gets what within pilot ranks, you're hopelessly divided, and you're [deleted] before you even get started. I would prefer the negotiation on DC contribution to be pretty short, and focused on a common % increase only.
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