Delta Pilots Association
09-20-2010, 12:51 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
Bottom line is that the Delta pilots are sending way to much money to ALPA National. This money could be better spent improving the lives of Delta pilots, not helping the numerous smaller (regional) pilot groups.
It's the Delta pilots money, why not spend it responsibly? ALPA has lost sight of the big picture imo and it's not helping us out. We have a union that is largely bark without any bite.
I don't see how a new union could be worse that what ALPA already is.
It's the Delta pilots money, why not spend it responsibly? ALPA has lost sight of the big picture imo and it's not helping us out. We have a union that is largely bark without any bite.
I don't see how a new union could be worse that what ALPA already is.
09-20-2010, 12:54 PM
#42
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Superpilot92
Scope
You cant effectively protect mainline jobs while also working to expand the regionals. Conflict of interest and the only way to fix it is to get all flying done by 1 pilot list for the said major. Whipsaw must stop.
You cant effectively protect mainline jobs while also working to expand the regionals. Conflict of interest and the only way to fix it is to get all flying done by 1 pilot list for the said major. Whipsaw must stop.
09-20-2010, 12:57 PM
#43
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by chuck416
ACL65,
I have agreed with practically every post I've ever read that had your name on it...however...this is the one notable exception. I don't presume to know what the answer is, but anybody who has been in this business more than a few years KNOWS that mainline flying has been continuously eroded, year-over-year, since at least 1990. The very first exception in my memory for ANY regional/commuter airline was with A/A, that allowed for a limited number of 19 seat aircraft to "probe the market" in BNA. Next thing you know, they buy up the carrier Simmons Airlines in ORD, where they operate 36 seat Shorts, and 46 seat ATR-42s. Then it was an exception to operate the ATR-72, then along comes the jungle jet, and Canidaire regional, and now we have the 90 seaters. I reiterate, I do not know what the answer is, but it really torques me when I see significant city pairs completely, (yes, completely) handed over to ASA, Comair, etc, etc, etc. If they wanna' fly MEM-TUP, or MSP-LSE, or DFW-GSP, that's one thing. To fly DTW to Monterrey, Mexico (yes, that's our "code-share regional partner" that does/used to fly that route) that is not "regional airline flying". Our two airlines used to have a combined list of somewhere around 13,000-14,000 pilots. I know factually that the north side at one time had 5,600, you south guys can fill in the rest. I'm not advocating "try something, even if it's right" approach. But we're all aware that ALPA's approach has been an unmitigated catastrophe. Ideas? Anyone?
Chuck
I have agreed with practically every post I've ever read that had your name on it...however...this is the one notable exception. I don't presume to know what the answer is, but anybody who has been in this business more than a few years KNOWS that mainline flying has been continuously eroded, year-over-year, since at least 1990. The very first exception in my memory for ANY regional/commuter airline was with A/A, that allowed for a limited number of 19 seat aircraft to "probe the market" in BNA. Next thing you know, they buy up the carrier Simmons Airlines in ORD, where they operate 36 seat Shorts, and 46 seat ATR-42s. Then it was an exception to operate the ATR-72, then along comes the jungle jet, and Canidaire regional, and now we have the 90 seaters. I reiterate, I do not know what the answer is, but it really torques me when I see significant city pairs completely, (yes, completely) handed over to ASA, Comair, etc, etc, etc. If they wanna' fly MEM-TUP, or MSP-LSE, or DFW-GSP, that's one thing. To fly DTW to Monterrey, Mexico (yes, that's our "code-share regional partner" that does/used to fly that route) that is not "regional airline flying". Our two airlines used to have a combined list of somewhere around 13,000-14,000 pilots. I know factually that the north side at one time had 5,600, you south guys can fill in the rest. I'm not advocating "try something, even if it's right" approach. But we're all aware that ALPA's approach has been an unmitigated catastrophe. Ideas? Anyone?
Chuck
MEMRAT on the head of the union.
09-20-2010, 12:59 PM
#44
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Chuck;
You hit one really big salient point. We as a pilot group are shrinking. Each time that scope has been loosened, we as a pilot group have voted for it. Under the DB days we were FAE focused, under the CH 11 era we were trying to avoid this or that, but in the end we always voted YES for the change, not ALPA National but the pilots of DAL/NWA.
The ugly truth is that the major airline pilots have caused the issue of the regionals getting to the point where they have more roll call votes than the majors do. We screwed up, and now we think we can fix it buy cutting bait and running. Classic.
The only way to solve this is to kick the dead weight out of ALPA, change the by laws to force National to come in line with those paying the bills, and to fight to reverse the trend we ourselves' have created. Outsourcing has and will always be a marriage that last one loop around the track. CH 11 took away any of the gains a plane here and there gave. It is now time to push the issue.
The only way to solve this issue without creating another one is to first ask for outsourced flying to be put back on our list. To my knowledge that has never been done. Why not? Who knows, but first ask the question, then take the response to that question and build from it.
All of these issues we started here at the mainline and must be solved at the mainline. I get the desire to have all money going to DAL pilot's interests but the reality is that many of our interest align with the other pilot groups that are part of the National ALPA. We would be spending the same money we do now. Some say that joining the CAPA would happen. That is all well and good, but do our interest totally align with all of its members? Nope not on your life, so in effect you are getting to join another group of unions that still has to come up with a general consensus while using your money. (No change)
As the argument goes, but there will not be any regional airlines in it. For now that is true, but what happens when ALPA dissolves? Will CAPA bring them in over fear that these guys will successfully create cutouts of their flying that totally fly past the mainlines PWA section one protections? I bet they would. It is self preservation, and the only way to keep them in check is to make them part of your greater group. It will result in having the same sort of organization we do now (National) that has the same limits. In effect we just will change the name plate on the door. Sounds like a lot of work and a ton of risk for not much reward.
A lot of pilots look at the regional v mainline conflict of interest at National. Well lets look at that. First look how the ALPA National Policy Manual and By-Laws are written. Go look, download them, and read them. Yep, I was looking for this conflict too about two years ago (was very vocal), and I constantly posted about it. I see no conflict. Just to save a few ppl time:
1) National Signs our contract, they do not negotiate it. The response is BS they do they send lawyers. They do, but we also employ our own that work for DALPA every day and sit in our offices. We negotiate what we want and can reign in scope with no fear of National telling us we cannot. They get a cut of the money if we fly it or if a regional represented by ALPA flies it. It is of no consequence to them.
(The only fear some regioanals may have about us doing this is that we as selfish and self centered mainline pilots my not remember to think of them at the table. As many have always said, their responsibility is to the Delta pilots first. With that said, what can they do about us doing what we want? Nada. We have the money and leverage, we just need to choose to use it.)
2) What about Ford Cooksey and those RJDC guys?
Lots of bad blood here, I agree. Their biggest mistake was suing ALPA. In the end the settlement gave them a seat at the table on an advisory committee. They have no binding authority on anything. It is meet and confer, no more no less. In effect a settlement without true teeth.
3) The local Units of ALPA do your bidding as a Delta pilot. The same will hold true with DPA. What that means is that once again, you need reps that carry your desires to the MEC and to the negotiating table. It means that nothing will change in the way we develop and negotiate our next contract. It requires one less signature which is no more than just a rubber stamp. (No National president would ever refuse to sign a mainline contract for no other reason that self preservation)
I totally get the frustration that many feel towards their Association over the last decade and more importantly over the last few years. What is the theme here? We all know the answer. We all agree that something needs to change, but we disagree on how that change needs to occur. I personally think that reform from within is the answer. We can disagree on that. I choose to take this stance for many reasons but the most important one is the "Law of Unintended Consequences."
In this world we are seeing more and more Joint Ventures and Cross Ocean agreements. Here at DALPA/DAL we have seen some very binding agreements with the AF/KLM deal and the agreement among all pilots of the the Sky Team Alliance. We have not seen the fruits of this effort since we have been in a recession but we will. This work is good work. It would have not been possible without ALPA and IFALPA. It by nature brought us and AF to the table to start a dialogue. Going it alone we may see this sort of thing, but it would not be as easy as it has been. It is like trying to get a visa to a country we do not have Diplomatic Relations to. Same principle.
These principles also allow many things to "happen" as we move forward. It is my belief that some day Foreign Ownership limits will be done away with and Cabatoge will be a thing of the past. What do you think that means for a pilot group that has embraced isolationism? My gut and view of history determines it will not be a positive one. That is why I say, keep the seat at the table but fix the issues behind the seat.
In regard to the regionals within ALPA National: We are getting to the point where they may have more rollcall votes that we do. Scary? maybe. In realty it is more like Mutually Assured Destruction. I am sure we will see the fourth by-law change to keep the balance of power in the hands of the mainline carrier at national but how do we "Reform ALPA" to fix what truly burns most pilots? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is seldom the correct answer.
It is why I say, before you don your fire suit, and pick up your torches, you educate yourself on the positions of the four men running for the office of ALPA National's President. Much of it will sound the same but a lot of it will not. We need a communicator that will take hard positions on scope, restoration, flight and duty time limits, cargo safety initiatives, associationesque limits on those joining our profession, compensation structures for ALPA National leaders and a myriad of other issues. We do not want lip service.
We as a group (All ALPA pilots) need these issues fixed before we succumb to our own devices. Trust me, when I say, ten years down the road looking back leaving ALPA may be the worst thing we could have done for our profession. It is good we are having this debate because it will force a few issues, but at the end of the day, there are more reasons to stay part of ALPA than to leave it.
We will undoubtedly be having this debate between ALPA and DPA over the next few months, but before you blindly vote make sure you are educated on what each choice means.
You hit one really big salient point. We as a pilot group are shrinking. Each time that scope has been loosened, we as a pilot group have voted for it. Under the DB days we were FAE focused, under the CH 11 era we were trying to avoid this or that, but in the end we always voted YES for the change, not ALPA National but the pilots of DAL/NWA.
The ugly truth is that the major airline pilots have caused the issue of the regionals getting to the point where they have more roll call votes than the majors do. We screwed up, and now we think we can fix it buy cutting bait and running. Classic.
The only way to solve this is to kick the dead weight out of ALPA, change the by laws to force National to come in line with those paying the bills, and to fight to reverse the trend we ourselves' have created. Outsourcing has and will always be a marriage that last one loop around the track. CH 11 took away any of the gains a plane here and there gave. It is now time to push the issue.
The only way to solve this issue without creating another one is to first ask for outsourced flying to be put back on our list. To my knowledge that has never been done. Why not? Who knows, but first ask the question, then take the response to that question and build from it.
All of these issues we started here at the mainline and must be solved at the mainline. I get the desire to have all money going to DAL pilot's interests but the reality is that many of our interest align with the other pilot groups that are part of the National ALPA. We would be spending the same money we do now. Some say that joining the CAPA would happen. That is all well and good, but do our interest totally align with all of its members? Nope not on your life, so in effect you are getting to join another group of unions that still has to come up with a general consensus while using your money. (No change)
As the argument goes, but there will not be any regional airlines in it. For now that is true, but what happens when ALPA dissolves? Will CAPA bring them in over fear that these guys will successfully create cutouts of their flying that totally fly past the mainlines PWA section one protections? I bet they would. It is self preservation, and the only way to keep them in check is to make them part of your greater group. It will result in having the same sort of organization we do now (National) that has the same limits. In effect we just will change the name plate on the door. Sounds like a lot of work and a ton of risk for not much reward.
A lot of pilots look at the regional v mainline conflict of interest at National. Well lets look at that. First look how the ALPA National Policy Manual and By-Laws are written. Go look, download them, and read them. Yep, I was looking for this conflict too about two years ago (was very vocal), and I constantly posted about it. I see no conflict. Just to save a few ppl time:
1) National Signs our contract, they do not negotiate it. The response is BS they do they send lawyers. They do, but we also employ our own that work for DALPA every day and sit in our offices. We negotiate what we want and can reign in scope with no fear of National telling us we cannot. They get a cut of the money if we fly it or if a regional represented by ALPA flies it. It is of no consequence to them.
(The only fear some regioanals may have about us doing this is that we as selfish and self centered mainline pilots my not remember to think of them at the table. As many have always said, their responsibility is to the Delta pilots first. With that said, what can they do about us doing what we want? Nada. We have the money and leverage, we just need to choose to use it.)
2) What about Ford Cooksey and those RJDC guys?
Lots of bad blood here, I agree. Their biggest mistake was suing ALPA. In the end the settlement gave them a seat at the table on an advisory committee. They have no binding authority on anything. It is meet and confer, no more no less. In effect a settlement without true teeth.
3) The local Units of ALPA do your bidding as a Delta pilot. The same will hold true with DPA. What that means is that once again, you need reps that carry your desires to the MEC and to the negotiating table. It means that nothing will change in the way we develop and negotiate our next contract. It requires one less signature which is no more than just a rubber stamp. (No National president would ever refuse to sign a mainline contract for no other reason that self preservation)
I totally get the frustration that many feel towards their Association over the last decade and more importantly over the last few years. What is the theme here? We all know the answer. We all agree that something needs to change, but we disagree on how that change needs to occur. I personally think that reform from within is the answer. We can disagree on that. I choose to take this stance for many reasons but the most important one is the "Law of Unintended Consequences."
In this world we are seeing more and more Joint Ventures and Cross Ocean agreements. Here at DALPA/DAL we have seen some very binding agreements with the AF/KLM deal and the agreement among all pilots of the the Sky Team Alliance. We have not seen the fruits of this effort since we have been in a recession but we will. This work is good work. It would have not been possible without ALPA and IFALPA. It by nature brought us and AF to the table to start a dialogue. Going it alone we may see this sort of thing, but it would not be as easy as it has been. It is like trying to get a visa to a country we do not have Diplomatic Relations to. Same principle.
These principles also allow many things to "happen" as we move forward. It is my belief that some day Foreign Ownership limits will be done away with and Cabatoge will be a thing of the past. What do you think that means for a pilot group that has embraced isolationism? My gut and view of history determines it will not be a positive one. That is why I say, keep the seat at the table but fix the issues behind the seat.
In regard to the regionals within ALPA National: We are getting to the point where they may have more rollcall votes that we do. Scary? maybe. In realty it is more like Mutually Assured Destruction. I am sure we will see the fourth by-law change to keep the balance of power in the hands of the mainline carrier at national but how do we "Reform ALPA" to fix what truly burns most pilots? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is seldom the correct answer.
It is why I say, before you don your fire suit, and pick up your torches, you educate yourself on the positions of the four men running for the office of ALPA National's President. Much of it will sound the same but a lot of it will not. We need a communicator that will take hard positions on scope, restoration, flight and duty time limits, cargo safety initiatives, associationesque limits on those joining our profession, compensation structures for ALPA National leaders and a myriad of other issues. We do not want lip service.
We as a group (All ALPA pilots) need these issues fixed before we succumb to our own devices. Trust me, when I say, ten years down the road looking back leaving ALPA may be the worst thing we could have done for our profession. It is good we are having this debate because it will force a few issues, but at the end of the day, there are more reasons to stay part of ALPA than to leave it.
We will undoubtedly be having this debate between ALPA and DPA over the next few months, but before you blindly vote make sure you are educated on what each choice means.
09-20-2010, 12:59 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: maddoggy dog
Posts: 1,026
How quickly can a new independent union get on the property? Can we really collect enough money to support our 2012 negotiations? Will we have enough money for a strike fund? The company will REALLY test the new union and try to break it. Can we really be prepared for such a huge fight in just a couple years? I'm serious about these questions because I don't know the answers.
09-20-2010, 01:02 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Originally Posted by Free Bird
Bottom line is that the Delta pilots are sending way to much money to ALPA National. This money could be better spent improving the lives of Delta pilots, not helping the numerous smaller (regional) pilot groups.
It's the Delta pilots money, why not spend it responsibly? ALPA has lost sight of the big picture imo and it's not helping us out. We have a union that is largely bark without any bite.
I don't see how a new union could be worse that what ALPA already is.
It's the Delta pilots money, why not spend it responsibly? ALPA has lost sight of the big picture imo and it's not helping us out. We have a union that is largely bark without any bite.
I don't see how a new union could be worse that what ALPA already is.
09-20-2010, 01:05 PM
#47
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
T-Scope is important, imo the most important, but an important way to fix scope is with unity. I much prefer to recapture flying with a the help from a regional ALPA MEC who sees the benefit with a possible quid then to fight them and the corporation for said flying.
By not fixing the current mess, and throwing them to the wayside we will gain no points and probably create a few enemies in the process.
I have looked long and hard at this issue. I was very vocal about a possible conflict a few years ago, but after much study, deliberation, and talking with many pilots with many different points of view, I came to the conclusion, that given where this industry is heading, protectionism will work great for a while, but for the long term it will leave us a lot worse off.
IMO what DPA will do is probably protect the big jets, and at some time fail in SJS.
I truly beleive that most majors cannot afford the necessary fleet renewal that they need to partake in. Because of this belief and the continued desire for consolidation that will continue across boarders it is imperative that we as a industry unite and not as separate special interest groups.
I too have no stomach for scope sales and for catering to everyone's needs, but that is what happens when the "leader" of your association is not a visionary, nor leader. I do know that this election will determine the future of ALPA. We need someone that is willing to rock the boat a little and the current incumbent is not my answer.
By not fixing the current mess, and throwing them to the wayside we will gain no points and probably create a few enemies in the process.
I have looked long and hard at this issue. I was very vocal about a possible conflict a few years ago, but after much study, deliberation, and talking with many pilots with many different points of view, I came to the conclusion, that given where this industry is heading, protectionism will work great for a while, but for the long term it will leave us a lot worse off.
IMO what DPA will do is probably protect the big jets, and at some time fail in SJS.
I truly beleive that most majors cannot afford the necessary fleet renewal that they need to partake in. Because of this belief and the continued desire for consolidation that will continue across boarders it is imperative that we as a industry unite and not as separate special interest groups.
I too have no stomach for scope sales and for catering to everyone's needs, but that is what happens when the "leader" of your association is not a visionary, nor leader. I do know that this election will determine the future of ALPA. We need someone that is willing to rock the boat a little and the current incumbent is not my answer.
09-20-2010, 01:07 PM
#48
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Caddis, I do not think I am saying that ALPA does not have issues and needs to be fixed. What I am saying is that the issues are fixable and the unintended consequences are to great to take them lightly. There is a huge difference.
/rant OFF
09-20-2010, 01:08 PM
#49
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
T;
That is not scare tactics, that is my own personal point of view. I look at Republic and see an airline and union that is not bound by ALPA's by-law's trying to weasel their way in to the Star Alliance. I can see SKW doing the same thing in Sky Team if we dump ALPA.
I hope I am wrong, and will happily admit that I am down the road. If I am wrong I am fine with it. I will be pro delta pilot always.
That is not scare tactics, that is my own personal point of view. I look at Republic and see an airline and union that is not bound by ALPA's by-law's trying to weasel their way in to the Star Alliance. I can see SKW doing the same thing in Sky Team if we dump ALPA.
I hope I am wrong, and will happily admit that I am down the road. If I am wrong I am fine with it. I will be pro delta pilot always.
09-20-2010, 01:09 PM
#50
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by tsquare
Still waiting for Mr. Prater to get off his butt and show up at an LEC meeting..... ANY LEC meeting at the world's largest airline with his agenda as to how he is going to "take back this profession"
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