DAL 88 Driver

THIS! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And the ALPA apologists can talk about the results of other pilot groups all they want. But it doesn't change the basic facts as stated above by Carl. We are approximately 40% below the buying power we had prior to taking a cumulative 42% pay cut. (Essentially no progress on restoring our pay.) Thousands of our jobs have been outsourced. And for most of us, our pensions are essentially gone. The results are indeed quite terrible. And DALPA (after all these years since the bankruptcy has been over, and with the company making $1 billion profits) still refuses to make a case for restoration or for reversing scope. Absolutely UNSAT.

Rather B Fishin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

I don't hate ALPA at all. I've been a member for 33 years, and proud of it for 20 or so. Now I'm embarrassed to be a member of ALPA and ashamed of what they've done (with my dues money) to the TWA pilots and to their own in-house union of clerical employees. Shame and embarrassment is not hate. If there's any attempt at clouding a discussion and its associated logic, it's being done by you for accusing me of hate in order to marginalize my fact based opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

No argument here. I've just never seen an instance of throwing out the baby with the bath water as the best choice.

One could argue that your blind love for ALPA clouds your ability to see wrong when it's happening right in front of you.

[/COLOR]

ALPA may have indeed put "itself there", but I have yet to see ONE post agreeing with ANYTHING ALPA from you. That's clouded judgment from where I stand.

NERD

Reminder boys. Does not matter what union we are in. WE voted for these contracts. WE did not have the guts to vote NO. Blame alpa all you want, but WE are to blame.

DAL 88 Driver

Ultimately, you are correct. But don't forget about the full court press sales pitch and pressure (including significant scare tactics) we got from ALPA to vote in favor of these agreements. Yeah, we should have had the guts to vote NO (some of us did), and part of the blame certainly goes to those who voted YES. But ALPA is not without blame in this. Not by a long stretch.

NERD

Not what I meant. I think ALPA has failed but so has every other pilot group the last 25-30 years. APA brought us the b-scale, voluntary paycuts in 2003, Swapa brought us undercutting wages to support the growth and by default they are on top, and Usapa, don't get me started. Not to mention all the jetblues, virgins, skybus, etc, etc that have undercut us and used the "we are new and can't expect a legacies pay and work rules excuse", "after we grow we will get that". All they have done is put pressure on us. So when y'all want to point out ALPAs faults, at least be fair and acknowledge that they are not alone in the destruction of our careers.

alfaromeo

Again, try doing some research. You get reimbursement for meals when you are away from home. Certainly you don't consider your per diem expenses while on a trip extra income. If so, then you have to add that into your comparison set for both sides. You can't count meal expenses for one comparison and not for the other.

If you fly a day turn out of Atlanta (or any other base) then pilots get per diem also, is this some hidden bonus that we should eliminate? This $900 is just some fiction you made up, again. If you want to have a real argument then stick to facts. Why do you have to resort to these deceptions in order to try to make your point?

alfaromeo

Carl, go back and read your DPA crap first. This is the first paragraph:

Yet one more lie from DPA. The APA was not unsatisfied with the level of service that ALPA provided. In fact, the APA had just recently went through a little internal shakeup in order to retain the services of ALPA. When bankruptcy hit, ALPA decided to terminate the relationship. But why should the facts get in the way.

I notice Carl you did not address the central issues in my first post on this topic. Was DPA too stupid to research the article they posted on their own website or are they trying to deceive us, yet again? Do you believe that there is some hidden pot of gold in every airline frequent flier program that no one except the Penny Saver author can find, or is this just another mindless rant from the DPA?

76drvr

I don't really buy into the argument that ALPA pressure and sales tactics overwhelm pilots and turn them into lemmings willing to vote yes on anything. Pilots make up their own mind and are just as capable as you or me to vote no if they don't like the deal. I voted no on loa 50 and 51, because after voting yes on the do it once, do it right, single biggest POS TA in aviation history, LOA 46, I wasn't going to vote for another concession and certainly not for any more loosening of scope. As it turns out, most pilots came to a different conclusion than I did on those agreements, not because they have less guts than I do, but simply because they looked at the deal and made a personal evaluation and voted accordingly. I can accept that. I have no need to find a villain in any of the concessionary contracts. I would just like to see us unite and get the best deal we can going forward. I just don't think we're going to do that if we're fighting each other.

shiznit

Scambo, I don't want anyone to "take my word for it".

I just don't want people "taking Carl's word for it" when he is wrong and misstating the situation.

Download the DAL MEC Policy Manual from the DALPA website.

It is all stating on page 56, which will be page 60 of the pdf.

Hope Carl can take the time to admit he is inaccurately stating the situation after taking just a few minutes to find out what the real policies are......

tsquare

Really??? Carl? Admit he is inaccurate? bwaaa haaaa haaa

Oh, you're serious.