Delta Pilots Association
01-04-2012 | 10:50 PM
#7171
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It's a great question. It would be far better for our union officials to be paid by union dues for EVERYTHING they do regarding representation of the members. That is currently not the case. When these guys drop trips for union work, this flight pay loss is paid by Delta management per our contract. Many of them drop every trip and haven't flown the line in a long time. All flight pay loss paid out by management should go out to all pilots as increased compensation, then our dues should be raised by the exact same amount. This way union guys would still get their full flight pay loss, but that money would be coming from the pilots they represent...not management.
The main issue here is our union is doing their level best to hide this stuff. They are incensed that it is even brought up as a topic because they don't want line pilots to know that many unelected MEC bureaucrats are making C2K level compensation while the rest of us are working under bankruptcy rates plus COLA.
ALPA knows they have a problem here, but they don't think it's quite bad enough to vote in the DPA...thus they continue to stonewall and hide.
Carl
The main issue here is our union is doing their level best to hide this stuff. They are incensed that it is even brought up as a topic because they don't want line pilots to know that many unelected MEC bureaucrats are making C2K level compensation while the rest of us are working under bankruptcy rates plus COLA.
ALPA knows they have a problem here, but they don't think it's quite bad enough to vote in the DPA...thus they continue to stonewall and hide.
Carl
01-04-2012 | 10:56 PM
#7172
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Is it, or is it not, true that schedules less than 70 hours are deleted when considering what is "average" when computing the number to pay FPL people?
That would go a LONG way in explaining why everyone I know is getting 68 hour lines from PBS, yet the "average" pay for FPL purposes is 87 hours.
If true, the real way to make a dent in the FPL pay is to change the policy manual to take into consideration all lines down to 60 hours, versus 70.
Nu
That would go a LONG way in explaining why everyone I know is getting 68 hour lines from PBS, yet the "average" pay for FPL purposes is 87 hours.
If true, the real way to make a dent in the FPL pay is to change the policy manual to take into consideration all lines down to 60 hours, versus 70.
Nu
Really? Particularly in months like the last 3 where the AVL in the majority of categories is around 74 hours
01-04-2012 | 11:01 PM
#7173
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I thought one of DPA's talking points were to decrease dues??? Your personal hatred of all things ALPA clouds any logical discussion. We currently have a PWA that stipulates the company pays certain union FPL, you say that's bad. If pilots had to pay, dues would increase, DPA says that's bad. You put DALPA in a no win posiition.
Its the crux of the problem Fishin. Think about it.
01-04-2012 | 11:09 PM
#7174
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From: 747-400 Captain
It is one of their points. But I don't speak for DPA. I'm just a line pilot who also vigorously supports the idea of an in-house union comprised of only Delta pilots who fight for the interests of Delta pilots.
I don't hate ALPA at all. I've been a member for 33 years, and proud of it for 20 or so. Now I'm embarrassed to be a member of ALPA and ashamed of what they've done (with my dues money) to the TWA pilots and to their own in-house union of clerical employees. Shame and embarrassment is not hate. If there's any attempt at clouding a discussion and its associated logic, it's being done by you for accusing me of hate in order to marginalize my fact based opinions.
One could argue that your blind love for ALPA clouds your ability to see wrong when it's happening right in front of you.
It can be bad if the wrong people are in place in management and the wrong people are in place in your union. In this case, it's a recipe for misrepresentation and identification with management. I think the evidence is clear that this is what's happening now at our airline.
That's correct. But if pay was increased by the exact same amount, pilot's higher dues would be exacty offset by their increased compensation. Then our representatives would be paid from dues of the represented...not by management.
No, ALPA has put itself there. I'm just pointing it out.
Carl
One could argue that your blind love for ALPA clouds your ability to see wrong when it's happening right in front of you.
That's correct. But if pay was increased by the exact same amount, pilot's higher dues would be exacty offset by their increased compensation. Then our representatives would be paid from dues of the represented...not by management.
No, ALPA has put itself there. I'm just pointing it out.
Carl
01-04-2012 | 11:17 PM
#7175
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From: 747-400 Captain
So, after dealing with the, well let's give the benefit of the doubt and call them "mistakes", over the flight pay loss issues, let's turn to some of the other "mistakes" coming out of the DPA. For instance, American Airlines declares bankruptcy so the DPA has to find some way to blame bankruptcy on ALPA. This is what they put on their website:
ALPA touts its ability to provide a "professional" team to assist pilot groups with economic and financial analysis. According to an article in the Washington Post in 2010, a 15 billion dollar asset in the form of the "Mileage Plus" program was completely overlooked and should have prevented the bankruptcy from being allowed had it been exposed. ALPA expert analysis missed this opportunity and failed to serve the United Pilots when they needed representation the most. CLICK HERE TO READ THE ARTICLE
What are you attempting to discuss?
Carl
01-04-2012 | 11:20 PM
#7176
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The first thing is to try to sift out the facts, since so many of your "facts" are not really factual.
First, 87 hours is the average pay hours, not block hours. If you have a week vacation in a month (21 hours) and fly 70 hours (many do) you have 91 pay hours. If you fly a 75 hour month and get a 10 hour green slip you have 95 pay hours. CQ training and many other items reflect pay hours and not block hours.
The 87 is not an opinion, it is a fact. Why doesn't DPA send someone to the ALPA office and review the data themselves? Wouldn't that eliminate this "did too, did not" rhetoric. I know, that would require unparking your butt from behind the keyboard and actually doing something.
Second, all committee members do not get paid what they can hold. The ones I can think off the top of my head are the four officers, the board of directors rep, and the negotiating committee. That should be 8 people (9 now that there are 4 negotiators). You and the DPA continue to spread this falsehood even though you have been corrected many, many times. It has gotten beyond the point of simple mistakes and now either goes into absolute incompetence or outright deception. Why can't the DPA simply stick to the facts, why do they have to try to deceive people?
Lastly, you mention the $1,000 stipend then throw in some $900 "lost per diem" and come up with $22,800. WTH over. Where did you invent this $900 payment? Hint 12 x $1,000 is $12,000 not $22,800. Given this $900 "loss" shouldn't the net be $100 a month or $1,200?
Maybe we can have a discussion over the real issues when you can at least get your facts straight. Until then, you are simply regurgitating propaganda that is outright false, you know it is false, and yet you continue to try to deceive people.
First, 87 hours is the average pay hours, not block hours. If you have a week vacation in a month (21 hours) and fly 70 hours (many do) you have 91 pay hours. If you fly a 75 hour month and get a 10 hour green slip you have 95 pay hours. CQ training and many other items reflect pay hours and not block hours.
The 87 is not an opinion, it is a fact. Why doesn't DPA send someone to the ALPA office and review the data themselves? Wouldn't that eliminate this "did too, did not" rhetoric. I know, that would require unparking your butt from behind the keyboard and actually doing something.
Second, all committee members do not get paid what they can hold. The ones I can think off the top of my head are the four officers, the board of directors rep, and the negotiating committee. That should be 8 people (9 now that there are 4 negotiators). You and the DPA continue to spread this falsehood even though you have been corrected many, many times. It has gotten beyond the point of simple mistakes and now either goes into absolute incompetence or outright deception. Why can't the DPA simply stick to the facts, why do they have to try to deceive people?
Lastly, you mention the $1,000 stipend then throw in some $900 "lost per diem" and come up with $22,800. WTH over. Where did you invent this $900 payment? Hint 12 x $1,000 is $12,000 not $22,800. Given this $900 "loss" shouldn't the net be $100 a month or $1,200?
Maybe we can have a discussion over the real issues when you can at least get your facts straight. Until then, you are simply regurgitating propaganda that is outright false, you know it is false, and yet you continue to try to deceive people.
Read it again Alpha. Try it slower. $1000 a month stipend for the gardener/maid/personal trainer or what ever you spend it on, and reimbursement for per diem. Figure the per diem at 15/16 days @ 2.50 hr.
Hint. It works out to a little more than $900. Add the two numbers together and multiply by 12. $22,800 bump. What is particularly distasteful is the per diem replacement for those collecting it while living in base.
Must come in handy though when you all are at the Happy Buddah holding court and breaking your arms trying to pat yourselves on the back for the "great job" your doing.
01-04-2012 | 11:23 PM
#7177
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From: 747-400 Captain
Try to stay on topic, and reply in a way that actually responds to the topic.
Carl
01-04-2012 | 11:33 PM
#7178
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From: 747-400 Captain
Scambo asked you for facts shiznit, not opinions. DALPA refuses to release this data. You have no idea if this is true of not.
Nobody said ALL volunteers did. But it could be the case. We'll never know because DALPA refuses to release the data. And 87 hours is NOT the average for Delta pilots. That's pure BS.
I don't think we know that either.
At least you're agreeing that some specified officers are paid 92 hours. Plus the 1,000 stipend, plus loosely accounted for expenses. But I'd really lilke to find out if these MEC bureaucrats and volunteers also get separately reimbursed for the per diem they would have gotten if they were flying the line...even when they're not flying the line.
You don't know that either. My personal experience with ALPA is one of loose accountability for expenses. It would never fly in my business or the businesses with which I am associated.
Carl
Nobody said ALL volunteers did. But it could be the case. We'll never know because DALPA refuses to release the data. And 87 hours is NOT the average for Delta pilots. That's pure BS.
Carl
01-04-2012 | 11:44 PM
#7179
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From: 747-400 Captain
I view union work pay like LCA/Inst. pay.
You don't want to pay so much extra that guys who only care about the $$$$ take the jobs and do a cruddy job and crowd out the pilots who WANT to do the job and have passion for the work.
Yet, you want to give the guys who have a passion for the job and do the extra work involved to do the best work possible bonus $$$ for their efforts.
It's a catch-22.
You don't want to pay so much extra that guys who only care about the $$$$ take the jobs and do a cruddy job and crowd out the pilots who WANT to do the job and have passion for the work.
Yet, you want to give the guys who have a passion for the job and do the extra work involved to do the best work possible bonus $$$ for their efforts.
It's a catch-22.
LCA's and instructors do their jobs exactly as prescribed, and the results are a pilot group that is well trained and at the top of our games. MEC bureaucrats and volunteers are doing their jobs in an opaque manner and their financials are difficult to discern. But the real problem is their results. Unlike the results of LCA's and instructors, our union's recent results are SILENCE on reversing scope and making the case FOR MANAGEMENT as to why Delta cannot afford to give us C2K restoration. It is these terrible RESULTS that make your comparison to LCA's and instructors a bad one.
Carl
01-05-2012 | 03:30 AM
#7180
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From: 767er Captain
Talked to a FL buddy, interesting to hear the mess they're in but of interest he's saying a group is forming to sue ALPA and he's trying to get involved. Lots of complaints about ALPA lawyers and he was the head of a ALPA committee at his former airline.
So that could be, and I will leave it to time to see, TWA II.
So that could be, and I will leave it to time to see, TWA II.
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