The AirTran Pilots' Windfall and SLI
01-05-2011 | 03:48 PM
#181
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 104
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From: Bus FO for now..but #2 in the Turkmenistan Airlines hiring pool...#1 is a goat
Yea yea, I know. Actually a lot more variables that could be looked at(ie rightsizing one side for the merger) that the arbitrator might look, but would not get it to it on this thread. In the end that obvious statement will be the most likley scenario.
01-05-2011 | 04:17 PM
#182
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 835
Likes: 27
Let's be clear;
with regard to any SLI, it isn't about what each airline brings to the table, it's about what each labor group does.
The efficiencies gained by the combining of two airlines are separate and distinct from the issues surrounding the merging of two seniority lists (read, contracts). For proof look no further than AWA/US. The "airline" has successfully merged....the labor? Not so much.
with regard to any SLI, it isn't about what each airline brings to the table, it's about what each labor group does.
The efficiencies gained by the combining of two airlines are separate and distinct from the issues surrounding the merging of two seniority lists (read, contracts). For proof look no further than AWA/US. The "airline" has successfully merged....the labor? Not so much.
The labor, i.e., every group but the pilots, merged just fine. It was the whiny east coast group who thought they were 'owed' something that destroyed that airline.
01-05-2011 | 05:17 PM
#183
Line Holder
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 68
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From: The Gup...
USAirways and AWA are HARDLY "merged" in terms of airlines.
The East and West are still by and large separately operated, resulting in VERY FEW of the cost savings moving forward for the surviving management group.
If you want to call that "successfully merged" operations, I'd hate to see what "unsuccessful" is...
The East and West are still by and large separately operated, resulting in VERY FEW of the cost savings moving forward for the surviving management group.
If you want to call that "successfully merged" operations, I'd hate to see what "unsuccessful" is...
01-05-2011 | 11:04 PM
#184
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Joined: Oct 2006
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From: KC135 IP
What is so important about being the Captain?
When I was a new aircraft commander in the Air Force it was defiinitely cool to be the guy making the decisions. 10,000 hours later it matters not what seat I sit in. I imagine many feel the same way. So it probably boils down to pay. So pay a 6 year AT capt (there are none or few) 6 year SWA Capt pay and let him sit in the right seat till he can upgrade. It would be a win for the AT guy as he can hold a line as an FO rather than sitting reserve as a Captain and still be compensated.
Let the 10 year SWA FO upgrade.
Win - Win. SWA can keep good will. Cost of doing business
Wasn't something similair offered to the Frontier guys?
Let the 10 year SWA FO upgrade.
Win - Win. SWA can keep good will. Cost of doing business
Wasn't something similair offered to the Frontier guys?
01-06-2011 | 07:50 AM
#185
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 127
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Boogie-
AirTran has at least 400 Captains who are junior to SWA FO's. Some of them have been Captains for 5 or 6 years. When you're combining two healthy (nonshrinking) carriers, you don't take a guy out of his seat he's been in for years and give it to an FO at the other airline, that is a "windfall".
If you start displacing guys from the 717, which would happen in your scenario, you're talking about potentially 3 or 4 training events caused by each displaced Captain. A displaced 737 Captain could hold 717, so he bids 717. A displaced 717 Captain becomes a 737 FO. A SWA 737 FO becomes a 717 Capt, etc. Those 400 displacements could trigger a thousand training events, lasting 6 weeks each . . . . Ouch!
Also, If an AirTran Captain is displaced, he is now not receiving SWA Captain pay. Are you going to pay protect him for the difference? No? Going to pay him AAI Captain pay? That is more than SWA FO pay, so are the SWA FO's going to be mad that he is making more per hour than they are? Should they all get raises to AAI Captain pay? How do you even that up?
The above is probably why "no bump, no flush" is pretty standard, along with fences. The AirTran Captains will probably remain in their seats and bases unless they bid out of them.
AirTran has at least 400 Captains who are junior to SWA FO's. Some of them have been Captains for 5 or 6 years. When you're combining two healthy (nonshrinking) carriers, you don't take a guy out of his seat he's been in for years and give it to an FO at the other airline, that is a "windfall".
If you start displacing guys from the 717, which would happen in your scenario, you're talking about potentially 3 or 4 training events caused by each displaced Captain. A displaced 737 Captain could hold 717, so he bids 717. A displaced 717 Captain becomes a 737 FO. A SWA 737 FO becomes a 717 Capt, etc. Those 400 displacements could trigger a thousand training events, lasting 6 weeks each . . . . Ouch!
Also, If an AirTran Captain is displaced, he is now not receiving SWA Captain pay. Are you going to pay protect him for the difference? No? Going to pay him AAI Captain pay? That is more than SWA FO pay, so are the SWA FO's going to be mad that he is making more per hour than they are? Should they all get raises to AAI Captain pay? How do you even that up?
The above is probably why "no bump, no flush" is pretty standard, along with fences. The AirTran Captains will probably remain in their seats and bases unless they bid out of them.
01-06-2011 | 09:11 AM
#186
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 224
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Boogie-
AirTran has at least 400 Captains who are junior to SWA FO's. Some of them have been Captains for 5 or 6 years. When you're combining two healthy (nonshrinking) carriers, you don't take a guy out of his seat he's been in for years and give it to an FO at the other airline, that is a "windfall".
If you start displacing guys from the 717, which would happen in your scenario, you're talking about potentially 3 or 4 training events caused by each displaced Captain. A displaced 737 Captain could hold 717, so he bids 717. A displaced 717 Captain becomes a 737 FO. A SWA 737 FO becomes a 717 Capt, etc. Those 400 displacements could trigger a thousand training events, lasting 6 weeks each . . . . Ouch!
Also, If an AirTran Captain is displaced, he is now not receiving SWA Captain pay. Are you going to pay protect him for the difference? No? Going to pay him AAI Captain pay? That is more than SWA FO pay, so are the SWA FO's going to be mad that he is making more per hour than they are? Should they all get raises to AAI Captain pay? How do you even that up?
The above is probably why "no bump, no flush" is pretty standard, along with fences. The AirTran Captains will probably remain in their seats and bases unless they bid out of them.
AirTran has at least 400 Captains who are junior to SWA FO's. Some of them have been Captains for 5 or 6 years. When you're combining two healthy (nonshrinking) carriers, you don't take a guy out of his seat he's been in for years and give it to an FO at the other airline, that is a "windfall".
If you start displacing guys from the 717, which would happen in your scenario, you're talking about potentially 3 or 4 training events caused by each displaced Captain. A displaced 737 Captain could hold 717, so he bids 717. A displaced 717 Captain becomes a 737 FO. A SWA 737 FO becomes a 717 Capt, etc. Those 400 displacements could trigger a thousand training events, lasting 6 weeks each . . . . Ouch!
Also, If an AirTran Captain is displaced, he is now not receiving SWA Captain pay. Are you going to pay protect him for the difference? No? Going to pay him AAI Captain pay? That is more than SWA FO pay, so are the SWA FO's going to be mad that he is making more per hour than they are? Should they all get raises to AAI Captain pay? How do you even that up?
The above is probably why "no bump, no flush" is pretty standard, along with fences. The AirTran Captains will probably remain in their seats and bases unless they bid out of them.
Your wasting your time Max. Believe it or not, B.N. works for AirTran.
01-06-2011 | 09:44 AM
#187
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 323
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From: B737 Captain
Also, If an AirTran Captain is displaced, he is now not receiving SWA Captain pay. Are you going to pay protect him for the difference? No?
So pay a 6 year AT capt (there are none or few) 6 year SWA Capt pay and let him sit in the right seat till he can upgrade.
Originally Posted by 4th Level
Let's be clear;
with regard to any SLI, it isn't about what each airline brings to the table, it's about what each labor group does. The efficiencies gained by the combining of two airlines are separate and distinct from the issues surrounding the merging of two seniority lists (read, contracts).
For proof look no further than AWA/US. The "airline" has successfully merged....the labor? Not so much.
------------------
Wrong.
The labor, i.e., every group but the pilots, merged just fine. It was the whiny east coast group who thought they were 'owed' something that destroyed that
Let's be clear;
with regard to any SLI, it isn't about what each airline brings to the table, it's about what each labor group does. The efficiencies gained by the combining of two airlines are separate and distinct from the issues surrounding the merging of two seniority lists (read, contracts).
For proof look no further than AWA/US. The "airline" has successfully merged....the labor? Not so much.
------------------
Wrong.
The labor, i.e., every group but the pilots, merged just fine. It was the whiny east coast group who thought they were 'owed' something that destroyed that
My first paragraph (bolded) still stands imo.
01-06-2011 | 11:02 AM
#188
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,578
Likes: 286
From: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
When I was a new aircraft commander in the Air Force it was defiinitely cool to be the guy making the decisions. 10,000 hours later it matters not what seat I sit in. I imagine many feel the same way. So it probably boils down to pay. So pay a 6 year AT capt (there are none or few) 6 year SWA Capt pay and let him sit in the right seat till he can upgrade. It would be a win for the AT guy as he can hold a line as an FO rather than sitting reserve as a Captain and still be compensated.
Let the 10 year SWA FO upgrade.
Win - Win. SWA can keep good will. Cost of doing business
Wasn't something similair offered to the Frontier guys?
Let the 10 year SWA FO upgrade.
Win - Win. SWA can keep good will. Cost of doing business
Wasn't something similair offered to the Frontier guys?
Hey Boogie Nights, are you receiving any communications from our union? You know, more specifically the ones that ask us not to discuss SLI expectations and wants in a public arena?
01-06-2011 | 11:13 AM
#189
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
From: KC135 IP
Alternate Idea
Boogie-
AirTran has at least 400 Captains who are junior to SWA FO's. Some of them have been Captains for 5 or 6 years. When you're combining two healthy (nonshrinking) carriers, you don't take a guy out of his seat he's been in for years and give it to an FO at the other airline, that is a "windfall".
If you start displacing guys from the 717, which would happen in your scenario, you're talking about potentially 3 or 4 training events caused by each displaced Captain. A displaced 737 Captain could hold 717, so he bids 717. A displaced 717 Captain becomes a 737 FO. A SWA 737 FO becomes a 717 Capt, etc. Those 400 displacements could trigger a thousand training events, lasting 6 weeks each . . . . Ouch!
Also, If an AirTran Captain is displaced, he is now not receiving SWA Captain pay. Are you going to pay protect him for the difference? No? Going to pay him AAI Captain pay? That is more than SWA FO pay, so are the SWA FO's going to be mad that he is making more per hour than they are? Should they all get raises to AAI Captain pay? How do you even that up?
The above is probably why "no bump, no flush" is pretty standard, along with fences. The AirTran Captains will probably remain in their seats and bases unless they bid out of them.
AirTran has at least 400 Captains who are junior to SWA FO's. Some of them have been Captains for 5 or 6 years. When you're combining two healthy (nonshrinking) carriers, you don't take a guy out of his seat he's been in for years and give it to an FO at the other airline, that is a "windfall".
If you start displacing guys from the 717, which would happen in your scenario, you're talking about potentially 3 or 4 training events caused by each displaced Captain. A displaced 737 Captain could hold 717, so he bids 717. A displaced 717 Captain becomes a 737 FO. A SWA 737 FO becomes a 717 Capt, etc. Those 400 displacements could trigger a thousand training events, lasting 6 weeks each . . . . Ouch!
Also, If an AirTran Captain is displaced, he is now not receiving SWA Captain pay. Are you going to pay protect him for the difference? No? Going to pay him AAI Captain pay? That is more than SWA FO pay, so are the SWA FO's going to be mad that he is making more per hour than they are? Should they all get raises to AAI Captain pay? How do you even that up?
The above is probably why "no bump, no flush" is pretty standard, along with fences. The AirTran Captains will probably remain in their seats and bases unless they bid out of them.
Again it seems to be a matter of pay vs seat which is what I was saying. So to save all those training costs an alternate idea would be to pay those bypassed SWA FO's Capt pay like some other carriers have in the past to save those training cost. The can have the advantage of pay and good QOL by being senior FO's
Of course management would have to offer that up.
01-06-2011 | 11:16 AM
#190
On Reserve
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 22
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Boogie-
AirTran has at least 400 Captains who are junior to SWA FO's. Some of them have been Captains for 5 or 6 years. When you're combining two healthy (nonshrinking) carriers, you don't take a guy out of his seat he's been in for years and give it to an FO at the other airline, that is a "windfall".
If you start displacing guys from the 717, which would happen in your scenario, you're talking about potentially 3 or 4 training events caused by each displaced Captain. A displaced 737 Captain could hold 717, so he bids 717. A displaced 717 Captain becomes a 737 FO. A SWA 737 FO becomes a 717 Capt, etc. Those 400 displacements could trigger a thousand training events, lasting 6 weeks each . . . . Ouch!
Also, If an AirTran Captain is displaced, he is now not receiving SWA Captain pay. Are you going to pay protect him for the difference? No? Going to pay him AAI Captain pay? That is more than SWA FO pay, so are the SWA FO's going to be mad that he is making more per hour than they are? Should they all get raises to AAI Captain pay? How do you even that up?
The above is probably why "no bump, no flush" is pretty standard, along with fences. The AirTran Captains will probably remain in their seats and bases unless they bid out of them.
AirTran has at least 400 Captains who are junior to SWA FO's. Some of them have been Captains for 5 or 6 years. When you're combining two healthy (nonshrinking) carriers, you don't take a guy out of his seat he's been in for years and give it to an FO at the other airline, that is a "windfall".
If you start displacing guys from the 717, which would happen in your scenario, you're talking about potentially 3 or 4 training events caused by each displaced Captain. A displaced 737 Captain could hold 717, so he bids 717. A displaced 717 Captain becomes a 737 FO. A SWA 737 FO becomes a 717 Capt, etc. Those 400 displacements could trigger a thousand training events, lasting 6 weeks each . . . . Ouch!
Also, If an AirTran Captain is displaced, he is now not receiving SWA Captain pay. Are you going to pay protect him for the difference? No? Going to pay him AAI Captain pay? That is more than SWA FO pay, so are the SWA FO's going to be mad that he is making more per hour than they are? Should they all get raises to AAI Captain pay? How do you even that up?
The above is probably why "no bump, no flush" is pretty standard, along with fences. The AirTran Captains will probably remain in their seats and bases unless they bid out of them.
Using the calculator on this site - a 6 year AAI captain is guaranteed 70x136=$9520 /mo. That is $114,240/ yr. A 6 year FO at SWA is guaranteed 78x132=$10,296 /mo. That is $123,552 /yr. If you only used 70 hrs/mo. for the SWA F/O, it would still be within about $300 /mo. (peanuts) but that wouldn't be accurate. In addition to earning an extra $9312 guaranteed $$'s per year, a 6 year AAI capt (now a 6 year SWA F/O) gains... 1) a much better schedule 2) more domiciles than they currently have to chose from 3) better company 4) better medical benefits 5) an extra week of vacation (I could be off on this but I think SWA gives an extra week of vacation). I would like to see how the discretionary flying compares between SWA and AAI as well.
If a junior AAI captain were to keep their seat they would earn a guarantee of $15,366 /mo. or $184,392 /yr. That is a GAIN of $70,152 /yr in addition to #'s 2,3,4, and possibly 5 above at a minimum. Of course we want to keep our seat position...because we all want to save the company some money - right?
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