DTW Roadshow
06-02-2012 | 02:37 PM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,642
Likes: 0
From: right for a long, long time
Actually, it's very simple. We are currently over staffed so between the work rule concessions (ALV + 15, 30 day months during peak flying for reserves, + 2 hour ALV increase (which means an LCW during peak flying of 77 - 91 hours during the summer and 67-81 during the low months and 7 short calls). So the additional 88 717s will be absorbed by 21 DC-9 retirements and the additional 67 717s (normally about 670 pilots) will be adsorbed by the current over staffing of Wide Bodies, work rule improvements and therefore we will see displacements (another pay cut that no one is talking about) to fill the new 717s that are being touted as growth A/C.
In your comment above you are discounting all the items that cause increases in staffing that will be required with this TA. That seems to make your "very simple" a little more complex?
I'll really appreciate that you are thinking about this in a rational matter (some of the forumites don't want to think, they want to "feel" or "deserve" things).
Do a little math on how many extra pilots will be needed with the other gains, you'll be surprised.
06-02-2012 | 03:46 PM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Because DAL has no way to reduce the contracts with the 50 seat jet providers without offering a deal to allow those companies an alternate way of staying in business.
If you owned/ran a DCI would you allow DAL to shrink/eliminate your company even though they had a contract but felt like abrogating it 5-8 years early?
All this does is placate the DCI operators in order to get them to become smaller but remain slightly profitable so they will agree to modify the terms of their agreements.
By the time the end of 2015 hits there will still be 553 jets under contract for DAL. This agreement will make the DCI fleet number 103 LESS at the 2015 point versus if we do NOTHING. I'll take 450 instead of 553(with the ability to increase that number) any day of the week.
(BTW, DCI won't shrink to 450 by parking the 50 seat jets until sometime in late 2018/early 2019.)
This TA restricts DCI flying, what says DALPA won't seek to restrict that flying AGAIN (in less than 3 years with this TA)?
If you owned/ran a DCI would you allow DAL to shrink/eliminate your company even though they had a contract but felt like abrogating it 5-8 years early?
All this does is placate the DCI operators in order to get them to become smaller but remain slightly profitable so they will agree to modify the terms of their agreements.
By the time the end of 2015 hits there will still be 553 jets under contract for DAL. This agreement will make the DCI fleet number 103 LESS at the 2015 point versus if we do NOTHING. I'll take 450 instead of 553(with the ability to increase that number) any day of the week.
(BTW, DCI won't shrink to 450 by parking the 50 seat jets until sometime in late 2018/early 2019.)
This TA restricts DCI flying, what says DALPA won't seek to restrict that flying AGAIN (in less than 3 years with this TA)?
Helping the company through bankruptcy with MASSIVE paycuts, then helping with one of the smoothest mergers in airline history wasn't enough. Lets help them with their 50 seater problem now. And lets do it for pay rate increases that are EMBARRASSING.
06-02-2012 | 03:47 PM
#63
Line Holder
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 643
Likes: 52
Pinnacle has 142 CRJ 50-seaters. DAL provided the DIP financing and is basically pulling the strings there. There is your 50 seater pull down, with or without the TA. The spin in incredible. I hope the pilot group can see thru the smoke and mirrors.
Helping the company through bankruptcy with MASSIVE paycuts, then helping with one of the smoothest mergers in airline history wasn't enough. Lets help them with their 50 seater problem now. And lets do it for pay rate increases that are EMBARRASSING.
Helping the company through bankruptcy with MASSIVE paycuts, then helping with one of the smoothest mergers in airline history wasn't enough. Lets help them with their 50 seater problem now. And lets do it for pay rate increases that are EMBARRASSING.
I agree! I can't fathom how some people can't see what is happening here.
06-02-2012 | 04:02 PM
#64
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
Likes: 0
From: B757/767
Pinnacle has 142 CRJ 50-seaters. DAL provided the DIP financing and is basically pulling the strings there. There is your 50 seater pull down, with or without the TA. The spin in incredible. I hope the pilot group can see thru the smoke and mirrors.
Helping the company through bankruptcy with MASSIVE paycuts, then helping with one of the smoothest mergers in airline history wasn't enough. Lets help them with their 50 seater problem now. And lets do it for pay rate increases that are EMBARRASSING.
Helping the company through bankruptcy with MASSIVE paycuts, then helping with one of the smoothest mergers in airline history wasn't enough. Lets help them with their 50 seater problem now. And lets do it for pay rate increases that are EMBARRASSING.
I'm not following you. Are you implying that Delta can simply dump those 142 CRJ200’s because Pinnacle filed BK? Delta owns the airplanes. They can't just dump those planes because the operator goes bankrupt.
06-02-2012 | 04:13 PM
#65
Banned
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 623
Likes: 0
From: DAL
I'm under the impression over half of DTW has already submitted DPA cards (along with MSP).
I can't imagine DTW rolling over for this TA. Sure, a several of the safe "yes" voters showed up today--DALPA's "rent-a-crowd". However, I'm sure a vast majority of the DTW group couldn't be bothered to waste their time on an indoctrination session.
This attempt to portray passage as inevitable is more DALPA spin; they are trying to invent peer pressure and a sense of "lost cause" that doesn't exist.
This thing is far from a done deal--especially in the former North bases.
I can't imagine DTW rolling over for this TA. Sure, a several of the safe "yes" voters showed up today--DALPA's "rent-a-crowd". However, I'm sure a vast majority of the DTW group couldn't be bothered to waste their time on an indoctrination session.
This attempt to portray passage as inevitable is more DALPA spin; they are trying to invent peer pressure and a sense of "lost cause" that doesn't exist.
This thing is far from a done deal--especially in the former North bases.
06-02-2012 | 04:18 PM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
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Kind of like a computer or airplane FMS for that matter:
Put bad data in get bad data out.
06-02-2012 | 04:27 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Likes: 0
I guess my first question is who did the analysis? If it was using numbers from the company(s) I say they are easily rigged. If they were numbers from ALPA, where did they get them? ALPA doesn't run an airline therefore has absolutely no idea the cost involved. All the numbers ALPA is "provided" come from said airline! All these numbers are or can be manipulated by anyone that has their hands on them....just look at FTB and his numbers
So no, it's not manipulated data unless you assume 2 different management teams are lying to the court and financial institutions.
Of course the DPA boyz like Karl, Bacon Bits and Jack think they can subcontract out that type of access....and nice shooting with the FtB comment...you nailed both of us!
06-02-2012 | 04:45 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,869
Likes: 187
I guess my first question is who did the analysis? If it was using numbers from the company(s) I say they are easily rigged. If they were numbers from ALPA, where did they get them? ALPA doesn't run an airline therefore has absolutely no idea the cost involved. All the numbers ALPA is "provided" come from said airline! All these numbers are or can be manipulated by anyone that has their hands on them....just look at FTB and his numbers
Kind of like a computer or airplane FMS for that matter:
Put bad data in get bad data out.
Kind of like a computer or airplane FMS for that matter:
Put bad data in get bad data out.
06-02-2012 | 04:58 PM
#69
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
Pinnacle has 142 CRJ 50-seaters. DAL provided the DIP financing and is basically pulling the strings there. There is your 50 seater pull down, with or without the TA. The spin in incredible. I hope the pilot group can see thru the smoke and mirrors.
Helping the company through bankruptcy with MASSIVE paycuts, then helping with one of the smoothest mergers in airline history wasn't enough. Lets help them with their 50 seater problem now. And lets do it for pay rate increases that are EMBARRASSING.
Helping the company through bankruptcy with MASSIVE paycuts, then helping with one of the smoothest mergers in airline history wasn't enough. Lets help them with their 50 seater problem now. And lets do it for pay rate increases that are EMBARRASSING.
What's with the sales job shiz?
06-02-2012 | 05:01 PM
#70
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
Sure is a lot easier to get out of leases and change the ASA when you're in CH11.... and that is exactly what is happening.
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