Fair is a stupid word. It is only an opinion and never fact.

Let me get this straight, if US pilots lobby the government and support ALPA's Capitol Hill influence by donating to ALPA PAC they are crying "life isn't fair"? In that case, I guess living within the United State's system of government isn't fair to you.

Everyone with a dog in this fight is a business and working with the system we have to gain advantage. Emirates, Boeing, ALPA PAC, and Delta will lobby with money. The UAE will try to influence with money and threats. Hopefully, American (citizens) pilots will lobby through their voice and vote.

This argument has nothing to do with customer service. I guess Carl already beat that dead horse. This is a trade and protectionism issue. This is an issue in which the US Government needs to take a hard look at what benefit the US Airline industry brings to this country and what national security issues may result in the weakening of our industry.

What does Emirates offer the United States in trade? Perhaps they can feed a domestic operation, but at what cost? Will the UAE in turn offer 5th freedom rights to United and Delta through Dubai or Abu Dhabi? I think not. What are they using as leverage then? They are using their huge orders of Boeings and Airbus and threats to peddle their wares.

I see Emirates and Etihad offering a positive bump to our manufacturing sector which is very short term compared to the negative impact they will have on our Airline industry if we open our skies to them. I would go so far to say the negative impact would be permanent rather than long term.

 

As if Lee Moak was reading this thread ALPA national has just put out a blast implying what you speak.

Unless you honestly believe the UAE will be able to leverage (these) aircraft orders into a cabotage victory for its carriers, than the most they can hope for is 5th freedom assess to (non UAE) markets. that has happened, so far with the Italian government's complicity, I'm not sure if the "rights" work both directions without the consent of the other party.

I too am troubled by the huge amount of lift these airlines in the UAE are purchasing and what they really think they can do with this lift. Several markets are ripe for the picking with a hub in the Middle East; Asia-Europe, Australia-Europe, Europe-Africa seem the most logical for a traveler to consider flying through DXB or DOH. My understanding is Qantas has already taken a big hit on their European traffic. The US, on the other hand, really only has the Indian market at risk for through service competition. Are we threatened by direct UAE service to the US? Do you believe that service to be ours?

That leaves the 5th freedom threat, like the Milan-NYC service already mentioned. Time will tell if "The Sheik's" threats and influence (though Boeing) will open up doors between Europe and the US that have been the domain of US and European airlines.

 

Exactly. The myth of billions of people in the third world magically morphing into cell phone using car driving travelers is the mother of all pipe dreams. Just plug those vaporware demand numbers into the petrol supply output potential. Even if it happens on that scale (which it won't) crude and commodities will spike to unbelievable levels resulting in demand destruction far in excess of their current maniacle growth projections.

Funny thing about bubbles is no one sees them until after they pop. This is like the 50 seater RJ heyday only on a grander stage (and with more at stake). For well over a decade the whole world was going to fly 50 seats at a time, businessman love frequency blah blah blah, STL and CVG imminent domaining for new runways, planes being put into service limited only by factory production and Canada/Brazil duking it out trying to out subsidize eachother for orders. Then as quickly as it began, the whole sector collapsed completely. Not because of any seismic shift after the fact, but because it was a bubble all along, and hardly anyone saw it until it was over.

Now here we are again with the SWF fake royal airlines placing their little airplane chess pieces on their maps of the world playing real life Airline Empire based off the fantasy that overpopulation is a national resource and if you build it they will come (and fly) for all eternity, for great success.

Their ace in the hole is the flat out extortion of our crony corporatism. They may think they can connect all the Chinese ghost cities with hourly 380 service to every major city on earth, but that's quite obviously never going to happen. The real prize/ultimate fight for survival is and always was going to be established US and EU markets. They are bribing us with our own money to sell them massive permanent sectors of our economy for a temporary production boom and we're falling for it. They have even managed to get some labor groups onboard too (on the bubble side of the equation).

There is net growth in China/Africa/etc, but it is nowhere near the ambitions of the 3 almost non existant O&D Gulf carriers. The real prize is the transfer of US and EU capacity to them. This is little more than a soverign wealth fund leveraged buyout attempt of our airline industry.

 

Maybe it is just that obvious.

Haven't read the blast yet. But I don't think he's copying my homework.

 

Yea I get it. Service (and quality) are not an issue. Probably the same
argument GM, Ford, and Chrysler were making in the 80's when the Japanese were making heavy inroads into the US car market. I don't know whether you fly for a passenger airline, if so, do you ever objectively rate your own airlines service? Do you even know what the competition is providing regarding service? We are all well aware of the price pressure this industry has put on its self. Destructive price wars, changes in how it raises revenue, and other facets in a mature industry that has (allowed its self) to become a commodity.
The bean counters at HQ are only worried about poor product to the extent it affects the yield. They see the customer as mere lemming's, locked into a special relationship due to loyalty reward programs. With the market that doesn't respond to loyalty, you reduce costs by cutting out every conceivable perk that once upon a time was considered standard. Just like Detroit, big airlines see "their" market as locked in and as such, no need to worry about the quality of the product, the customer has no options.

In 1980, General Motors was by far the largest auto manufacture in the world. Today its Toyota. I guarantee it not because the world wanted to reward the Japanese for their bad luck 70 years ago. Its because their product was better than the rest. Our industry needs to read the history before we repeat the same mistakes.

Oh, my bad, Carl and company say its not about customer service, please excuse my thread drift.

 

I just rode back from HKG on UA business class--certainly an abuse if the words "business class". Eight across in a T7, more like coach with lie down seating. Maude Frickett is alive and well, too. Never saw a F/A for six hours after "lunch" was passed out.

This isn't about product, sorry for the drift.

Gloopy: if the Gulf carriers will cancel all these orders, what's the problem? As to their customer base: within 9 hours of flight time is about 300 million potential middle class flyers, probably more like 500 million. So, the theory is they'll just stay home?

Have you actually visited India, Africa and the ME? Flown on EK or QR?

 

APC and its users... the best CRAPers out there... pro-capitalist and pro war...

 

You guys crack me up. After ALPA let most all of the horses out of the barn by letting FFD carriers paint mainline livery on their jets you are now crying about another country doing to the US what we did to them many years ago??? I don't have a dog in this fight but ALPA's response to this issue seems way too transparent.

 

So the future "flag of convienience" of our entire industry is little more than a fully justified "chickens coming home to roost" thing to you then?

 

It's more than just pilot job security... its nationalism, national security and safety....