Hawaii50

No problem. I never thought we were saving a dying carrier. You guys would have done fine without the merger as would we have. There's really no right or wrong answer here except that you should be in relatively the same circumstances as you are now when all is said and done, in my opinion. If you the max you can hold now is 767 Capt you shouldn't expect to be a 747 Capt after the SLI. If your seniority holds DC-9 Capt now you shouldn't expect to be a 767 Capt post-merger. Of course opinions are like you know what on this. Everyone has one, but in the end the only ones that matter at this point are the negotiators and three arbitrators.

capncrunch

I like to look at that same scenario but in reverse. If your 767 captain took his seniority(which is based on the day he was hired) over to NWA, what position would he have?

Ferd149

I actually agree, but I say that as an old guy who probably won't suffer long course training again.

As you know, the only way you move up in this business is for someone above you to die or retire. In a pure relative seniority SLI, we will have guys younger than you senior to you........hence no movement. Also, I agree, you guys get whacked with DOH.

So, what is the answer? Got me going.......me and the merger committies too. Welcome to arbritration, and god help us. I can't wait to live with the decision of three guys who aren't airline pilots nor have to live with the results of their decision. I still resolve to never discuss it with a post merger new hire........been there done that and it's really boring .

Ferd

alfaromeo

On the lists I have, I show that 15 years after the merger, in 2023, Delta will have retired about 2,850 pilots and Northwest will have retired about 2,600 pilots.

In the short term, Northwest is losing dozens of airplanes with no replacements. You are losing more jobs than you have had pilots retire. Lots more. DL just took delivery of 737-700's and those deliveries are continuing. Starting in December, we have 6 777's being delivered. Those job gains will end up offsetting the jobs being lost from Northwest.

Northwest will soon have a large pay raise, how many pilots would have to retire to equal that amount of pay increase through seat movement?

I see Northwest pilots talking about where they are going to be 10 or 15 years from, but ignore the huge economic benefits that are being delivered right now by coming into the DL system. Currently Delta has over 1,800 jobs that pay at or above your current A-330 rate.

There is a reason Northwest had to have a furlough mitigation letter, it is because they are going to have to furlough unless more pilots retire, they are over staffed by a lot. DL is talking about needing new hires very soon on a standalone plan. Do the math. Career expectations don't start 15 years from now.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad that these benefits are going to the Northwest pilots, but don't pretend they don't matter.

keenster

Again and again I have to disagree with your mis information. First of all we are not getting huge pay raises. I have done the math. By the time you take into account that medical cost more and on average your lines are less than ours I will be lucky to break even. Also you are getting the same raises that we are in the new contract in the years to come so it is not as if you are not benefiting as well. You only get those raises if this thing comes together. You are basically keeping your current contract,
and we are loosing ours which has some nice things in it that you don't have. So, again and again I have asked for a list of things you are loosing from this deal and haven't seen one yet. My raise is $8 an hour. So 75hours give me an extra 600 bucks now take away 250 extra medical cost and i have $350 a month raise before taxes. After taxes maybe $200 bucks in the pocket. So could you please stop the press on our huge pay raise and huge gain that we are supposedly getting, it isn't there. Yes we will be making more money but $200 a month does not do much for me but I will be happy to get it.

I am happy to see the pay rates coming up but at the same time lets talk about facts and not fiction. I hope to see the rates go sky high for everyone and am glad to have you guys along for the ride. I was retiring early but now I will bre forced to go to 60 because your contract has no medical for early retirees which will cost me $1950 a month if I go early but that does not matter to you. You don't have that available so you have not lost what I have. There is a whole list of things that we are loosing that $8 an hour raise does not make up for. Before you can make that kind of statement you would need to know our contract backwards and forwards. To be fair, I do not know your contract so there may be some gains that i DO NOT KNOW ABOUT. But in the big areas like medical and retirement it seems to be lacking compared to what i HAVE NOW. You would probably not be happy to have the NWA contract and have us saying that you are getting huge pay raises etc.etc.etc. iF THE ROLE WAS REVERSED. That is life I guess.

Carl Spackler

So alfa, I see you're up to your old BS tactics again:

So what? Those statistics don't show that those DAL retirements are disproportionately lower on the combined list. It means that in 5 to 10 years, the top of the new list will be all DAL pilots if a straight ratio method is adopted. That's the problem. A list that looks good today, but has one pilot group at the top of the list tomorrow simply won't fly without extensive fences. Which would be fine with me...good fences make good neighbors.

Total BS, you haven't any idea what you are talking about.

There you go again talking about future deliveries as though they are already on the ramp with widgets painted on them.

Now there's a wild analogy. That is almost incomprehensible. Haven't you heard that crack kills?

No NWA pilot is ignoring the economic benefit. They just understand that it occured because of a merger between the two strongest major carriers - not because we're coming into the DAL system. The only ignoring that's going on is your ignoring the benefit of merging with Northwest Airlines. Your arrogance is embarrasing.

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. The only over staffing was very short term and seasonal. Much like your short term over staffing at DAL.

Yo...most arrogant one! Benefits are arising to all parties, even DAL pilots. You would not have ANY gains whatsoever (LOA 19 or otherwise) without the pending merger with NORTHWEST AIRLINES. My God, I hope the average DAL guy isn't as arrogant as you.

Carl

johnso29

[quote=alfaromeo;444993]On the lists I have, I show that 15 years after the merger, in 2023, Delta will have retired about 2,850 pilots and Northwest will have retired about 2,600 pilots. Your pilot group is about 2000 pilots larger, so I would say that's MORE retirements for us.

In the short term, Northwest is losing dozens of airplanes with no replacements. You are losing more jobs than you have had pilots retire. Lots more. DL just took delivery of 737-700's and those deliveries are continuing. Starting in December, we have 6 777's being delivered. Those job gains will end up offsetting the jobs being lost from Northwest. I invite you to look at the 18 787s that NWA is getting, along with 50 more options. You may also need to consider the DC9 replacement that will be obtained. Compass is not the replacement, as it is a 76 seat airplane, not 100+ seat. Scope will not allow a 100+ seat airplane to go to a regional.

Northwest will soon have a large pay raise, how many pilots would have to retire to equal that amount of pay increase through seat movement? Not as many that will have to retire for me to make up what I'll lose from a slower upgrade to WB CA.

I see Northwest pilots talking about where they are going to be 10 or 15 years from, but ignore the huge economic benefits that are being delivered right now by coming into the DL system. Currently Delta has over 1,800 jobs that pay at or above your current A-330 rate. Huge economic benefits today mean nothing if I can't cash in on them as soon as I could at NWA.

There is a reason Northwest had to have a furlough mitigation letter, it is because they are going to have to furlough unless more pilots retire, they are over staffed by a lot. DL is talking about needing new hires very soon on a standalone plan. Do the math. Career expectations don't start 15 years from now. You have no proof that DL will need new hires very soon on a standalone plan. You don't know if there are plans for further domestic capacity reduction with a standalone plan, so you have nothing here.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad that these benefits are going to the Northwest pilots, but don't pretend they don't matter. Don't pretend that I'm only gaining and not losing in this deal. Bottom line, I'm losing things in this deal, not just gaining. Will those gains outweigh the losses? Only time will tell. But don't act like they don't matter.[quote]


I feel the long term survivability of the combined companies are better, but please stop acting like this is all gain and no loss for the NWA pilots. That is just not true.

Respectfully, Johnso29

johnso29

duplicate post.............................................. ..

Ferd149

Carl,

Exactly what I was trying to say to Hawaii earlier. We were discussing replacement aircraft prior to the merger announcement, now we're not. It's not rocket science to realize the growth alfaromeo talks about is BOTH our growth!

I'm hoping he and the Spaceman are the minority who can't see the big picture. We both would have been fine without the other, but together we're going to run the table. However, having the jets say Delta on them will go to some of their heads.

Ferd

Carl Spackler

Exactly.

alfa and spaceman were two peas in a pod weren't they. I guess I forgot about that. I'm hopeful you're right about this too.

Carl