Green Book Guys
11-12-2008 | 08:20 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: LAX ERA
I thought it was NALPA's position that pay doesn't matter in constructing a seniority list. So why are we even having this discussion? From a purely selfish perspective it would be great if the SLI were determined by premerger pay rates Is that really a discussion you want to have, because all the NWA A320s/319s and DC-9s pay less than MD-88 rates and would therefore be classified as small narrow bodied aircraft and all DAL 777s pay super duper premium wide bodied rates and would be ranked ahead of the 747-400. Nevermind the fact that DAL 757s have the same effective pay rate as a NWA A330.
I would actually agree with your argument if NALPA had a national contract/payscale with the ATA. But, that is not the system we use.
11-12-2008 | 09:55 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
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I thought it was NALPA's position that pay doesn't matter in constructing a seniority list. So why are we even having this discussion? From a purely selfish perspective it would be great if the SLI were determined by premerger pay rates Is that really a discussion you want to have, because all the NWA A320s/319s and DC-9s pay less than MD-88 rates and would therefore be classified as small narrow bodied aircraft and all DAL 777s pay super duper premium wide bodied rates and would be ranked ahead of the 747-400. Nevermind the fact that DAL 757s have the same effective pay rate as a NWA A330.
Someone came back and said it isn't included with the 757, the 757 is included with the 76ER and that's how I should look at it. When I looked at the payscales, as I previously posted, it seemed to be the other way around.
As for what NWA's postion I don't know what it was in regards to pay. Personally, I don't think it should matter that much considering you're both majors airlines who always tried to raise the bar (think leap frog) operating under bankruptcy contracts. I also don't think the 747 should be thought of greater than the 777 or the dc9 should be stapled because it's a little smaller. The argument of super premium and stapled dc9's is foolish. Hopefully the arbitrators are smart enough to see beyond childish antics.
11-12-2008 | 10:48 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: A330 capt
Now Carl, (-and newknow, you noodling nitwit, and Capncrunch, you clueless conveyor of claptrap
) you're only stating a part of the whole story. True, the 1/1/09 and subsequent payraises are part of the JPWA and were contained in LOA 19, contingent on the merger. Notice I say contingent on the "merger" only.........and not on the "cooperation" or "contributions" of the NW pilots, which, of course, were then non-existant. (for whatever reason)...(look at Stevens' testimony)
) you're only stating a part of the whole story. True, the 1/1/09 and subsequent payraises are part of the JPWA and were contained in LOA 19, contingent on the merger. Notice I say contingent on the "merger" only.........and not on the "cooperation" or "contributions" of the NW pilots, which, of course, were then non-existant. (for whatever reason)...(look at Stevens' testimony)But, your recent payraises, at DCC, (that averaged nearly 10%, BTW) are a pure move up to parity with the DL pilots. Had our existing payrates not averaged 10% higher than yours, you would not now, nor at DCC have enjoyed any such payraise. So, yes, we at DL, with great humility and a deep sense of brotherly magnanimity, accept your heartfelt expression of gratitude for your recent increase in "status". (as partially defined by ALPA merger policy)..... not a bad payraise considering the total of all your many "strenuous efforts" and "sacrificial actions" to achieve it, could be summed up as "occupying space".
Last edited by wiggy; 11-12-2008 at 10:54 AM.
11-12-2008 | 11:25 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: 765-A
Now Carl, (-and newknow, you noodling nitwit, and Capncrunch, you clueless conveyor of claptrap) you're only stating a part of the whole story. True, the 1/1/09 and subsequent payraises are part of the JPWA and were contained in LOA 19, contingent on the merger. Notice I say contingent on the "merger" only.........and not on the "cooperation" or "contributions" of the NW pilots, which, of course, were then non-existant. (for whatever reason)...(look at Stevens' testimony)
) you're only stating a part of the whole story. True, the 1/1/09 and subsequent payraises are part of the JPWA and were contained in LOA 19, contingent on the merger. Notice I say contingent on the "merger" only.........and not on the "cooperation" or "contributions" of the NW pilots, which, of course, were then non-existant. (for whatever reason)...(look at Stevens' testimony)But, your recent payraises, at DCC, (that averaged nearly 10%, BTW) are a pure move up to parity with the DL pilots. Had our existing payrates not averaged 10% higher than yours, you would not now, nor at DCC have enjoyed any such payraise. So, yes, we at DL, with great humility and a deep sense of brotherly magnanimity, accept your heartfelt expression of gratitude for your recent increase in "status". (as partially defined by ALPA merger policy)..... not a bad payraise considering the total of all your many "strenuous efforts" and "sacrificial actions" to achieve it, could be summed up as "occupying space".
I'm wondering. What exactly did you do to get those magnanimous payrates that you currently enjoy?
I mean to say, if you've been around long enough, you would know that a pilot groups higher payrates over another pilot group last only as long as the next contract.
In this industry, one group piggybacks off the other. It has nothing to do with your skill and everything to do with timing.
So, if you want us to thank you for our recent payraises, fine. Thanks, you guys are the greatest.
But, if thats the case, you should return that thanks to us for negotiating the first payraises of any of the pilot groups post 9/11.
-You should thank UAL for getting that huge contract in 2000.
-You should thank us (NWA) for going on strike in 1998.
-You should thank AA for the sickout they had in 1996 or 1997. (I forget)
-You should thank every other airline out there who had the jumpseat before you guys.
With all of your talk of expectant gratitude, I think you miss the big picture.
This industry and profession should not be about expecting a "thanks" from your fellow pilots. It's should be about banding together to to move forward towards advancements and increases for everyone.
For the most part EVERY pilot group has contributed something positive to the profession that the next pilot group subsequentially built upon. There is no thanks required for doing what you are supposed to do.
The sooner you realize that, the sooner your head will be able to fit thru the cockpit door.
Last edited by newKnow; 11-12-2008 at 11:32 AM.
11-12-2008 | 11:42 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: LAX ERA
New,
Great description you silver fingered devil. What I was trying (and failing) to get across by bringing up pattern bargaining.
As you pointed out, we were able to get a post 9/11 payraise because RA wanted labor peace in that environment and paid us to extend our contract. A good deal for us at the time and I'm sure part of the post bankruptcy discussion in the LOA 19 talks.
Great description you silver fingered devil. What I was trying (and failing) to get across by bringing up pattern bargaining.
As you pointed out, we were able to get a post 9/11 payraise because RA wanted labor peace in that environment and paid us to extend our contract. A good deal for us at the time and I'm sure part of the post bankruptcy discussion in the LOA 19 talks.
11-12-2008 | 04:26 PM
#46
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: 767er Captain
My question was, "why isn't the 76ER included in with the 764 payscale instead of with the 757 pay?" It had nothing to do with the merger.
Someone came back and said it isn't included with the 757, the 757 is included with the 76ER and that's how I should look at it. When I looked at the payscales, as I previously posted, it seemed to be the other way around.
Someone came back and said it isn't included with the 757, the 757 is included with the 76ER and that's how I should look at it. When I looked at the payscales, as I previously posted, it seemed to be the other way around.
As for what NWA's postion I don't know what it was in regards to pay. Personally, I don't think it should matter that much considering you're both majors airlines who always tried to raise the bar (think leap frog) operating under bankruptcy contracts. I also don't think the 747 should be thought of greater than the 777 or the dc9 should be stapled because it's a little smaller. The argument of super premium and stapled dc9's is foolish. Hopefully the arbitrators are smart enough to see beyond childish antics.
Steve
11-12-2008 | 04:30 PM
#47
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
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From: 767er Captain
But but but... UAL should (and they did actually) thank DAL for the rates we got prior to that which allowed them to get that contract. Of course we then proceeded to give away a section of our contract that gave us the leverage to do just that. I'll 'splain it to ya over a beer sometime. I'll leave you and your other friends to your argument..
Ciao!
Steve
Ciao!
Steve
11-12-2008 | 06:15 PM
#48
Inventory survival kit ..
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,069
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From: Seeking no jacket required rotations
But but but... UAL should (and they did actually) thank DAL for the rates we got prior to that which allowed them to get that contract. Of course we then proceeded to give away a section of our contract that gave us the leverage to do just that. I'll 'splain it to ya over a beer sometime. I'll leave you and your other friends to your argument..
Ciao!
Steve
Ciao!
Steve
11-15-2008 | 04:20 AM
#49
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Joined: Mar 2008
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From: A330 capt
I find it entertaining that you ignore the main subject of his post, the fact that NW has nothing equivalent to the 59 767ERs. You further ignore his point that, because DL has 50 more widebody international aircraft (81% more) than NW, that NW will directly and absolutely benefit from that, at the expense of the DL pilots. (only 40% larger group) Your ratio of widebodies/pilots is enriched, DL's is diluted. You're welcome! (RTFP)
11-15-2008 | 08:11 AM
#50
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Joined: Mar 2008
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From: A330 capt
[quote=newKnow;497284]Wiggy,
--It is a bit unwieldy, what with the gigantic, tissue-thin ego throbbing against all points of my cranium, but a little vaseline and a push from behind and, voila'!
I'm wondering. What exactly did you do to get those magnanimous payrates that you currently enjoy?
First of all, it is the DL pilots who are magnanimous, not the payrates. In spite of the alarmist and childish behavior of the NW MEC after LOA 19, the DL pilots did exactly as they said they would, -use the majority of the negotiating capital to bring their "brethren" up to parity. (we all know they could have done differently)
Then, in surely one of the most bizarrely disingenuous and superficially self-serving acts in merger history, the NW MEC tryed to claim their step up to parity was, for the expediency of seniority list construction, actually a step down to parity.
Secondly, I, personally, never claimed that I, personally, did anything to get those "magnanimous" payrates. To continue down that line of reasoning leads to the idea that none of us can take "credit" or "responsibility" for anything, individually or as separate groups. (from which reasoning I conclude, infallibly, -you are a democrat!)
)
I mean to say, if you've been around long enough, you would know that a pilot groups higher payrates over another pilot group last only as long as the next contract.
Well if you meant to say just this, why didn't you?--it would have saved me from having to write the long, vituperatively recapitulative diatribe above! Actually, and this will no doubt come as a great surprise to you...I disagree. We are not engaged in "pattern bargaining", we are engaged in a "merger". You received a payraise exclusively, and altogether soley, because DL's payrates were superior to your own.
In this industry, one group piggybacks off the other. It has nothing to do with your skill and everything to do with timing.
A little too general for my taste, New. It has something to do with skill...management at managing, and management and pilots at negotiating, and less to do with the timing of "manna from Heaven".
So, if you want us to thank you for our recent payraises, fine. Thanks, you guys are the greatest.
Our magnanimity in accepting this altogether ostentatious display of gratitude is in direct proportion to the sincerity with which it is offered!
But, if thats the case, you should return that thanks to (1)us for negotiating the first payraises of any of the pilot groups post 9/11.
-You should thank UAL for getting that huge contract in 2000.
(2)-You should thank us (NWA) for going on strike in 1998.
-You should thank AA for the sickout they had in 1996 or 1997. (I forget)
-You should thank every other airline out there who had the jumpseat before you guys.
-You should thank UAL for getting that huge contract in 2000.
(2)-You should thank us (NWA) for going on strike in 1998.
-You should thank AA for the sickout they had in 1996 or 1997. (I forget)
-You should thank every other airline out there who had the jumpseat before you guys.
We unreservedly thank all the groups/endeavors above except (1) and (2), -to whom our gratefulness is "tempered" in light of the present "difficulties" and which gratefulness, at best, can only have an expectation of sincerity based on the concept of "reciprocity" (yeah, dude, we'll thank you like you thanked us.)
The sooner you realize that, the sooner your head will be able to fit thru the cockpit door.
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