Pointy Nose Type Looking for Advice
12-02-2012, 12:37 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 174
Originally Posted by HercDriver130
How many years do you have in?
Yes, there will probably be hiring over the next 10 years, the variable is exactly when they will start hiring some say...2012...some say 2014....some might even argue for late as 2015. Mainly because company plans are always changing... most of the mainline/legacy carriers out there today have slowly pulled back capacity over the past few years to increase profits.... it may or may not continue... how much and how fast will effect how many are hired. Then of course there are questions of where are you willing to live..and who are you willing to work for. NOthing is a sure thing, and the grass isnt always greener so to speak. I am sure you will have plenty more opinions come in.
For me personally...if I had 13 plus years in.. I would probably stay....then look at outside aviation. Less than that I would look at ANG or RSV units and then seriously about getting out.
Yes, there will probably be hiring over the next 10 years, the variable is exactly when they will start hiring some say...2012...some say 2014....some might even argue for late as 2015. Mainly because company plans are always changing... most of the mainline/legacy carriers out there today have slowly pulled back capacity over the past few years to increase profits.... it may or may not continue... how much and how fast will effect how many are hired. Then of course there are questions of where are you willing to live..and who are you willing to work for. NOthing is a sure thing, and the grass isnt always greener so to speak. I am sure you will have plenty more opinions come in.
For me personally...if I had 13 plus years in.. I would probably stay....then look at outside aviation. Less than that I would look at ANG or RSV units and then seriously about getting out.
Originally Posted by hawgdriver
I have been in your same shoes. For me, active duty AF and constantly competing for my next assignment while watching guys get an IP upgrade handed to them because they want to go to WIC/become a CC is not what I want to continue to do for my adult life. I have 1.5 years left and I've decided to go to the reserves and try to get an airline job. I love the AF, serving my country and flying the Hawg. But I don't like moving every three years and all the BS I mentioned above. For me this is going to allow me to continue to fly jets, deploy with my bro's serve my country and never have to move again unless I make that decision. One thing I am giving up is the security of always having a paycheck and a guaranteed retirement. I'm willing to make that sacrifice. Everyone is different and you need to ask yourself what you want out of your life. The airlines are always up and down and you will see many different opinions on this forum. If you can get out in the next couple years this is probably a good time to do so. There will be a lot of hiring in the next few years and the airlines like military guys.
My advise to you is: Get your ATP, keep following the forums and continue to educate yourself on the airline industry, start looking for a reserve or guard job and don't tell anyone at work what your plans are until you're ready to jump ship. I wouldn't completely cut ties with the AF and go to the airlines without a guard/reserve job. You'll miss the flying and all your bro's. It will also subsidize your first few years at the airlines with the low pay. It you completely hate the airlines, you'll have opportunities to possibly go full time if you need it. Good luck
My advise to you is: Get your ATP, keep following the forums and continue to educate yourself on the airline industry, start looking for a reserve or guard job and don't tell anyone at work what your plans are until you're ready to jump ship. I wouldn't completely cut ties with the AF and go to the airlines without a guard/reserve job. You'll miss the flying and all your bro's. It will also subsidize your first few years at the airlines with the low pay. It you completely hate the airlines, you'll have opportunities to possibly go full time if you need it. Good luck
Originally Posted by reCALcitrant
No risk, no reward. Welcome to every AD AF squadron I know right now. Miserable. If you have less than 5 left, stick it out. More than 5'ish, go to a reserve unit (feel free to pm me about that) to get your retirement and get on with an airline. You'll never regret the feeling of taking a leap. You are educated, skilled, and work hard. You'll land on your feet.
12-02-2012, 02:25 PM
#12
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 85
Originally Posted by TweetIP
So here's a couple of big questions for those of you who have gone before me. Here's my situation:
I'm a pointy nose type that is really fed up. I am not the most charismatic type of person and am also pretty soft spoken. I have been able to rock my previous assignments but in my current squadron there are a lot of strong personalities and I feel like I've been kicked to the gutter because of it. I don't even come close to making RAP every month unless I start kicking and screaming and pointing out to people that I am on the schedule to fly once every 2-3 weeks and then they go, "Oh, no way, how did that happen?" They spend about a week trying to fly me a little and then back to the one flight every 2-3 weeks. I've gotten to the point that I have a dark cloud over my head and completely hate my job because I feel like I have to beg just to do what I have been trained to do. My ground job is also so small that I could get away with doing maybe 1-2 hours of it a week and would be probably spending more time on it than is needed even with that. (FWIW, I am new to this squadron and understand that being a new guy means that I have to work my way up a little but this seems really ridiculous.)
Also, I look all around me and everyone is unhappy and just can't wait to get out. It seems like every few weeks to a month someone new drops the bomb and lets everyone know that they are getting out. People aren't happy and I am one of them. Here are a couple of questions:
-For those who have been in my situation would you say that I really have been kicked to the curb? (It sure looks that way to me.)
-I am thinking about getting out and trying for the airlines but am really confused by the whole airline thing. My friends who fly for the airlines are telling me to stay in the AF and suck it up because they think it is better than going to the airlines. I am not sure that I agree. I am tired of competing for peanuts in the AF. Would do you say?
-I know this is a huge question but is it really going to be that good of a time to go to the airlines? I see lots of evidence that there is going to be a big hiring boom, but then just as much that the hiring boom is b.s. What say ye?
Anyway, please feel free to throw spears too because I am looking for genuine and honest advice!
I'm a pointy nose type that is really fed up. I am not the most charismatic type of person and am also pretty soft spoken. I have been able to rock my previous assignments but in my current squadron there are a lot of strong personalities and I feel like I've been kicked to the gutter because of it. I don't even come close to making RAP every month unless I start kicking and screaming and pointing out to people that I am on the schedule to fly once every 2-3 weeks and then they go, "Oh, no way, how did that happen?" They spend about a week trying to fly me a little and then back to the one flight every 2-3 weeks. I've gotten to the point that I have a dark cloud over my head and completely hate my job because I feel like I have to beg just to do what I have been trained to do. My ground job is also so small that I could get away with doing maybe 1-2 hours of it a week and would be probably spending more time on it than is needed even with that. (FWIW, I am new to this squadron and understand that being a new guy means that I have to work my way up a little but this seems really ridiculous.)
Also, I look all around me and everyone is unhappy and just can't wait to get out. It seems like every few weeks to a month someone new drops the bomb and lets everyone know that they are getting out. People aren't happy and I am one of them. Here are a couple of questions:
-For those who have been in my situation would you say that I really have been kicked to the curb? (It sure looks that way to me.)
-I am thinking about getting out and trying for the airlines but am really confused by the whole airline thing. My friends who fly for the airlines are telling me to stay in the AF and suck it up because they think it is better than going to the airlines. I am not sure that I agree. I am tired of competing for peanuts in the AF. Would do you say?
-I know this is a huge question but is it really going to be that good of a time to go to the airlines? I see lots of evidence that there is going to be a big hiring boom, but then just as much that the hiring boom is b.s. What say ye?
Anyway, please feel free to throw spears too because I am looking for genuine and honest advice!
12-02-2012, 02:29 PM
#13
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 85
Originally Posted by webecheck
No offense, but I find this hard to believe. A squadron, be it the DO or chf of scheduling, cant just choose to fly someone at less than RAP and have it be no big deal. Just to test the waters, be available for 2 months straight. No leave or other reasons for them to say they couldnt fly you. Once you dont make rap the first month, I bet it gets sorted out. Have the data to compare your total RAP sorties to that of the rest of the squadron. If your complaint is legit, it will get noticed.
Fighter squadron life sucks. Its just the way it is, and its not going to get better. I think being a Lt or Capt in a ftr sq is the worst quality of life one could possibly have. I can attest that its gets better as an ADO, and if you find yourself attached one day it should be better too....depending on your idea of what is a good QOL. For me, having reasonable work days and not a slave to the constant last minute unnecessary waste of time pilot meeting that starts at 1730 or 1800 where the topic of the day is how we're all f'ing up cuz some dbag cold soaked a pod.
I'm attached and have a fairly normal work week. I fly at BMC, and am happy to do so. When I think back to my younger ftr days I can tell you it was way worse than life now. So, hang in there dude, or just get out.
Best advice I can give you, and this will have an immediate impact on your attitude and thoughts of life in the AF starting tomorrow: Quit trying to compete to be the next #1 strat. Do the best you can with a reasonable amount of effort and just let the chips fall where they may. Do you even want to be a General one day? If not, why freaking stress about not being the #1 push. Work a reasonably expected amount and then split for some hobbies. Odds are you wont be the last push on base, those are usually reserved for dudes who consistently dork stuff up, but you'll be immensely happier because you're doing some stuff for yourself for a change. Even if you are vml'd to a non ftr assignment, its not that big of a deal. You may even find you like it so much it convinces you to stay in. I know of countless dudes who enjoyed their alo, upt, etc tour more than their first ftr tour.
If you went the ftr track, a 20 year career is definitely a marathon not a sprint. All the sprinters split once the UPT adsc is up, those who stay are the marathoners and wanna be Generals. If one of your goals is to be a General, then you're just going to have to eat that $h1t sandwich and quit complaining. If you just want to serve, maybe make Major or LC, and be a good American who offers 20 years to his country, quit stressing about being top dog.
As long as the pension remains the same, those that stick it out to 20 and then go airlines/civy job will be happy they did imo. Thats my plan anyway. Then again, i'm eating a 365 next year cuz of that plan.
All imho.
Fighter squadron life sucks. Its just the way it is, and its not going to get better. I think being a Lt or Capt in a ftr sq is the worst quality of life one could possibly have. I can attest that its gets better as an ADO, and if you find yourself attached one day it should be better too....depending on your idea of what is a good QOL. For me, having reasonable work days and not a slave to the constant last minute unnecessary waste of time pilot meeting that starts at 1730 or 1800 where the topic of the day is how we're all f'ing up cuz some dbag cold soaked a pod.
I'm attached and have a fairly normal work week. I fly at BMC, and am happy to do so. When I think back to my younger ftr days I can tell you it was way worse than life now. So, hang in there dude, or just get out.
Best advice I can give you, and this will have an immediate impact on your attitude and thoughts of life in the AF starting tomorrow: Quit trying to compete to be the next #1 strat. Do the best you can with a reasonable amount of effort and just let the chips fall where they may. Do you even want to be a General one day? If not, why freaking stress about not being the #1 push. Work a reasonably expected amount and then split for some hobbies. Odds are you wont be the last push on base, those are usually reserved for dudes who consistently dork stuff up, but you'll be immensely happier because you're doing some stuff for yourself for a change. Even if you are vml'd to a non ftr assignment, its not that big of a deal. You may even find you like it so much it convinces you to stay in. I know of countless dudes who enjoyed their alo, upt, etc tour more than their first ftr tour.
If you went the ftr track, a 20 year career is definitely a marathon not a sprint. All the sprinters split once the UPT adsc is up, those who stay are the marathoners and wanna be Generals. If one of your goals is to be a General, then you're just going to have to eat that $h1t sandwich and quit complaining. If you just want to serve, maybe make Major or LC, and be a good American who offers 20 years to his country, quit stressing about being top dog.
As long as the pension remains the same, those that stick it out to 20 and then go airlines/civy job will be happy they did imo. Thats my plan anyway. Then again, i'm eating a 365 next year cuz of that plan.
All imho.
12-02-2012, 02:43 PM
#14
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 27
Dudes, I really appreciate all of the advice. (I even appreciate the spears.) You have given me some good stuff to think about. I feel like I need to share just a little bit more of my story though for full affect. I didn't want to do this originally in the off chance that someone I know is on here but whatever...
As far as what you guys have said about the airlines and guard and reserves I think you gave me some great advice. If I get out my plan would be to get on with a guard/reserve unit and fly for food or get some other job. However, I would probably have to transfer airframes to do that and I don't know how likely that would be? Also, isn't it really hard to get picked up by any fighter unit even if you are an experienced fighter guy? Doesn't everyone want that?
As far as not trying to be #1 that is great advice. That will be hard because I am used to being pretty competitive but I'll give that a try.
A couple people commented about the situation in my squadron and not really believing what is going on. Well, I can see why you would say that but I am going to give a little bit more information that will make it even more unbelievable... believe it or not. I am a prior FAIP and this happens to be my first fighter squadron AND I just finished MQT not that long ago! If it wasn't happening to me I wouldn't believe it myself! You would think that a brand new guy who just got CMR would be flying a little more than this. That is what I just can't understand. MY CC even stopped me in the hall the other day because we had just flown in the same formation and he said, "Were you originally scheduled to fly today?" I told him "no", and he said "good" because I've told everyone to fly my young guys a lot so I'm glad you got put in to fly. He then asked if I've been flying a lot and I gave him the deer in the headlights look because I had no idea how to answer that without blatantly lying to him. If I would have been 100% truthful and forthcoming with him I would have had to say, "No sir, I haven't. I got put up to fly today after complaining to my flt/cc no less than twice a week for the past month about how often I am flying. I had to call people over the weekend to get into this flight today and for the week or else I would have been placed on probation next month. That is how often I am flying sir."
So, as you can guess I've got 7 years in so I'm no where near retirement. I am a hard worker and love flying and it is killing me to be going through this. I feel like I could go to work for 4 hours a day and no one would be the wiser and I would be doing just as good as I am now. Ugh.
When I first got to this squadron a dude that I knew from before pulled me aside and told me that there was no place that he would rather be less and that he was jumping ship asap. He seems really happy actually because he's made his decision and he volunteers to not go on all of the TDY's and deployments and seems to get to stay behind a lot. Sure, his career is probably totally shot but he's happy. Something that I am not.
So, I've got <5 years of this left and am approaching 2,000 flight hours total. Most of which is PIC multi-engine turbine and I've got about 800 hours of IP time as well.
Does this info help you to see my situation any better?
As far as what you guys have said about the airlines and guard and reserves I think you gave me some great advice. If I get out my plan would be to get on with a guard/reserve unit and fly for food or get some other job. However, I would probably have to transfer airframes to do that and I don't know how likely that would be? Also, isn't it really hard to get picked up by any fighter unit even if you are an experienced fighter guy? Doesn't everyone want that?
As far as not trying to be #1 that is great advice. That will be hard because I am used to being pretty competitive but I'll give that a try.
A couple people commented about the situation in my squadron and not really believing what is going on. Well, I can see why you would say that but I am going to give a little bit more information that will make it even more unbelievable... believe it or not. I am a prior FAIP and this happens to be my first fighter squadron AND I just finished MQT not that long ago! If it wasn't happening to me I wouldn't believe it myself! You would think that a brand new guy who just got CMR would be flying a little more than this. That is what I just can't understand. MY CC even stopped me in the hall the other day because we had just flown in the same formation and he said, "Were you originally scheduled to fly today?" I told him "no", and he said "good" because I've told everyone to fly my young guys a lot so I'm glad you got put in to fly. He then asked if I've been flying a lot and I gave him the deer in the headlights look because I had no idea how to answer that without blatantly lying to him. If I would have been 100% truthful and forthcoming with him I would have had to say, "No sir, I haven't. I got put up to fly today after complaining to my flt/cc no less than twice a week for the past month about how often I am flying. I had to call people over the weekend to get into this flight today and for the week or else I would have been placed on probation next month. That is how often I am flying sir."
So, as you can guess I've got 7 years in so I'm no where near retirement. I am a hard worker and love flying and it is killing me to be going through this. I feel like I could go to work for 4 hours a day and no one would be the wiser and I would be doing just as good as I am now. Ugh.
When I first got to this squadron a dude that I knew from before pulled me aside and told me that there was no place that he would rather be less and that he was jumping ship asap. He seems really happy actually because he's made his decision and he volunteers to not go on all of the TDY's and deployments and seems to get to stay behind a lot. Sure, his career is probably totally shot but he's happy. Something that I am not.
So, I've got <5 years of this left and am approaching 2,000 flight hours total. Most of which is PIC multi-engine turbine and I've got about 800 hours of IP time as well.
Does this info help you to see my situation any better?
12-02-2012, 03:25 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
So much bad info in this thread I don't know where to begin...
To the poster who said fighter time was less valuable than MC-12 or whatever, you really don't know what you are talking about. As someone who has helped about 3000 pilots get ready for airline interviews, I can point out some stuff that is valuable:
1. PIC Turbine
2. Instructor experience
3. Evaluator experience
In other words, a two tour F-16 guy with 1000 hours and IP quals is going to score higher than a guy flying C-130s or C-17s who has 2000 hours but only 500 PIC and is just an AC. At my company, I know of at least 5 guys hired with F-22 experience and a handful more that have been called for testing and interviews in 2013. Nothing wrong at all with flying an MC 12 or going to the AFA and flying the UV-18 if you want, but don't confuse what adds value to a resume. Excellence and advancement IN YOUR WEAPON SYSTEM stand out.
Next point--most airlines have pilots in the process who are somewhat familiar with the career tracks in the military. They can identify someone who has done exceptionally well, and also recognize someone who was just skating by. Not everyone can be an instructor in their first ops assignment, and sometimes hours are tougher to get due to fiscal or manning issues. You don't have to be on track to be a WIC IP or a general to have a "solid, reasonable" track record that will get you hired. At the same time, the pilot who coasts and makes no attempt to advance is identifiable as well. Coasting in your first tour at BMC rates, getting 300-350 hours, and then taking the first assignment out of the fighter business sends a signal too.
In my experience as an airline pilot, CFI, and fighter pilot for 20 years, what I have seen consistently is that if you are successful in one arena, you will generally be successful in the next one too. Of course there are exceptions, and I've seen where a pilot who was stifled in on part of his career managed to excel in another later on. However, those are the exceptions and not the rule. So most employers, including the Air National Guard, look at your past performance to gauge an idea of where you might go in your next position. I've seen several guys turned away from ANG units not because of poor flying skills, but poor work ethic on additional duties or poor squadron social skills. So--if you want advice--here it is regardless of whether you get out or stay in: Do the very best you can do, every day, every mission, all the ********* time. You will fail some days. You may get leapfrogged for an upgrade. It won't always be fair. But you will get some wins, and you will learn about yourself. And then--with a reputation for a solid work ethic, a proven work history, and some grit--you'll do well no matter which direction you go.
I feel uniquely qualified to give you this advice not because I'm older than you, but like you (and many others) I got to my first F-15 squadron as a young captain after a FAC tour. Like FAIPs, former Navs and WSOs, banked pilots, and late rated guys, I too showed up without the benefit of having a "Lt shield" in my first fighter squadron. It wasn't easy. But I gutted through it, made a lot of mistakes, took my lumps and learned, and I got better every day. After going through that, I used to even tell other young guys that they probably wouldn't have "fun" in the job for a year or more. It takes a while to get a handle on even the basics of being an ops fighter pilot, and while it is "satisfying" sometimes it isn't fun. But what I can tell you with the benefit of experience is that if you CAN hang on, it WILL get fun. Maybe not tomorrow, or even next month, but if you can steel yourself a while it does get better. My own story is I went from my first squadron and went ops to ops, then to the FTU, and then to the ANG. Over 2000 hours and 15 years later I was damn glad I gutted through the first hard part, because it got very very good as time went on.
What you do NOT want to do is decide this is too hard and start sandbagging and accepting less than your best. Fight--I mean FIGHT--to get on the schedule. (Hint: Albie is "I'll be" Haigin' your sortie). Jump in the backseat--sit in on briefs if you aren't flying, and bust your ass to be the best scheduler/snako/planner/stan eval boy or whatever you are tasked to do. Make an appointment with your flt CC, DO or squadron commander and tell them you want to FLY. Ask them for advice on the best way to meet that goal, and then listen. Everyone has a different take, but odds are they will give you some solid pointers and appreciate your motivation and interest. You are a "virtual" Lt, and you need to fly to learn. What you don't do now is start pining for a return to ATC or an MC-12 tour to "escape" your current pain. It will get better. The biggest jerk is your squadron is probably due to PCS in less than 14 months, and in a year there will be 2 new flight CCs, a new DO, and a lot of new faces. If you don't like it today just give it time--it will change.
I suspect some of this is just the honeymoon of getting a fighter assignment wearing off and the reality of the challenges soaking in. Lots of guys have gone through this. Shake off those FAIP blues--you used to be someone and now you aren't. But--if you can grit your teeth, roll up your sleeves, and plow through this--you will be glad you did. You'll be more likely to get a better follow on assignment, more likely to get hired by the Guard, or more likely to get that call from the airline of your choice if you'll do a good job where you are right now.
Feel free to PM...I don't give out hugs but I can and will provide a boot in the ass with some real data points if it helps...
To the poster who said fighter time was less valuable than MC-12 or whatever, you really don't know what you are talking about. As someone who has helped about 3000 pilots get ready for airline interviews, I can point out some stuff that is valuable:
1. PIC Turbine
2. Instructor experience
3. Evaluator experience
In other words, a two tour F-16 guy with 1000 hours and IP quals is going to score higher than a guy flying C-130s or C-17s who has 2000 hours but only 500 PIC and is just an AC. At my company, I know of at least 5 guys hired with F-22 experience and a handful more that have been called for testing and interviews in 2013. Nothing wrong at all with flying an MC 12 or going to the AFA and flying the UV-18 if you want, but don't confuse what adds value to a resume. Excellence and advancement IN YOUR WEAPON SYSTEM stand out.
Next point--most airlines have pilots in the process who are somewhat familiar with the career tracks in the military. They can identify someone who has done exceptionally well, and also recognize someone who was just skating by. Not everyone can be an instructor in their first ops assignment, and sometimes hours are tougher to get due to fiscal or manning issues. You don't have to be on track to be a WIC IP or a general to have a "solid, reasonable" track record that will get you hired. At the same time, the pilot who coasts and makes no attempt to advance is identifiable as well. Coasting in your first tour at BMC rates, getting 300-350 hours, and then taking the first assignment out of the fighter business sends a signal too.
In my experience as an airline pilot, CFI, and fighter pilot for 20 years, what I have seen consistently is that if you are successful in one arena, you will generally be successful in the next one too. Of course there are exceptions, and I've seen where a pilot who was stifled in on part of his career managed to excel in another later on. However, those are the exceptions and not the rule. So most employers, including the Air National Guard, look at your past performance to gauge an idea of where you might go in your next position. I've seen several guys turned away from ANG units not because of poor flying skills, but poor work ethic on additional duties or poor squadron social skills. So--if you want advice--here it is regardless of whether you get out or stay in: Do the very best you can do, every day, every mission, all the ********* time. You will fail some days. You may get leapfrogged for an upgrade. It won't always be fair. But you will get some wins, and you will learn about yourself. And then--with a reputation for a solid work ethic, a proven work history, and some grit--you'll do well no matter which direction you go.
I feel uniquely qualified to give you this advice not because I'm older than you, but like you (and many others) I got to my first F-15 squadron as a young captain after a FAC tour. Like FAIPs, former Navs and WSOs, banked pilots, and late rated guys, I too showed up without the benefit of having a "Lt shield" in my first fighter squadron. It wasn't easy. But I gutted through it, made a lot of mistakes, took my lumps and learned, and I got better every day. After going through that, I used to even tell other young guys that they probably wouldn't have "fun" in the job for a year or more. It takes a while to get a handle on even the basics of being an ops fighter pilot, and while it is "satisfying" sometimes it isn't fun. But what I can tell you with the benefit of experience is that if you CAN hang on, it WILL get fun. Maybe not tomorrow, or even next month, but if you can steel yourself a while it does get better. My own story is I went from my first squadron and went ops to ops, then to the FTU, and then to the ANG. Over 2000 hours and 15 years later I was damn glad I gutted through the first hard part, because it got very very good as time went on.
What you do NOT want to do is decide this is too hard and start sandbagging and accepting less than your best. Fight--I mean FIGHT--to get on the schedule. (Hint: Albie is "I'll be" Haigin' your sortie). Jump in the backseat--sit in on briefs if you aren't flying, and bust your ass to be the best scheduler/snako/planner/stan eval boy or whatever you are tasked to do. Make an appointment with your flt CC, DO or squadron commander and tell them you want to FLY. Ask them for advice on the best way to meet that goal, and then listen. Everyone has a different take, but odds are they will give you some solid pointers and appreciate your motivation and interest. You are a "virtual" Lt, and you need to fly to learn. What you don't do now is start pining for a return to ATC or an MC-12 tour to "escape" your current pain. It will get better. The biggest jerk is your squadron is probably due to PCS in less than 14 months, and in a year there will be 2 new flight CCs, a new DO, and a lot of new faces. If you don't like it today just give it time--it will change.
I suspect some of this is just the honeymoon of getting a fighter assignment wearing off and the reality of the challenges soaking in. Lots of guys have gone through this. Shake off those FAIP blues--you used to be someone and now you aren't. But--if you can grit your teeth, roll up your sleeves, and plow through this--you will be glad you did. You'll be more likely to get a better follow on assignment, more likely to get hired by the Guard, or more likely to get that call from the airline of your choice if you'll do a good job where you are right now.
Feel free to PM...I don't give out hugs but I can and will provide a boot in the ass with some real data points if it helps...
12-02-2012, 03:44 PM
#16
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 85
Originally Posted by Albief15
So much bad info in this thread I don't know where to begin...
To the poster who said fighter time was less valuable than MC-12 or whatever, you really don't know what you are talking about. As someone who has helped about 3000 pilots get ready for airline interviews, I can point out some stuff that is valuable:
1. PIC Turbine
2. Instructor experience
3. Evaluator experience
In other words, a two tour F-16 guy with 1000 hours and IP quals is going to score higher than a guy flying C-130s or C-17s who has 2000 hours but only 500 PIC and is just an AC. At my company, I know of at least 5 guys hired with F-22 experience and a handful more that have been called for testing and interviews in 2013. Nothing wrong at all with flying an MC 12 or going to the AFA and flying the UV-18 if you want, but don't confuse what adds value to a resume. Excellence and advancement IN YOUR WEAPON SYSTEM stand out.
Next point--most airlines have pilots in the process who are somewhat familiar with the career tracks in the military. They can identify someone who has done exceptionally well, and also recognize someone who was just skating by. Not everyone can be an instructor in their first ops assignment, and sometimes hours are tougher to get due to fiscal or manning issues. You don't have to be on track to be a WIC IP or a general to have a "solid, reasonable" track record that will get you hired. At the same time, the pilot who coasts and makes no attempt to advance is identifiable as well. Coasting in your first tour at BMC rates, getting 300-350 hours, and then taking the first assignment out of the fighter business sends a signal too.
In my experience as an airline pilot, CFI, and fighter pilot for 20 years, what I have seen consistently is that if you are successful in one arena, you will generally be successful in the next one too. Of course there are exceptions, and I've seen where a pilot who was stifled in on part of his career managed to excel in another later on. However, those are the exceptions and not the rule. So most employers, including the Air National Guard, look at your past performance to gauge an idea of where you might go in your next position. I've seen several guys turned away from ANG units not because of poor flying skills, but poor work ethic on additional duties or poor squadron social skills. So--if you want advice--here it is regardless of whether you get out or stay in: Do the very best you can do, every day, every mission, all the ********* time. You will fail some days. You may get leapfrogged for an upgrade. It won't always be fair. But you will get some wins, and you will learn about yourself. And then--with a reputation for a solid work ethic, a proven work history, and some grit--you'll do well no matter which direction you go.
I feel uniquely qualified to give you this advice not because I'm older than you, but like you (and many others) I got to my first F-15 squadron as a young captain after a FAC tour. Like FAIPs, former Navs and WSOs, banked pilots, and late rated guys, I too showed up without the benefit of having a "Lt shield" in my first fighter squadron. It wasn't easy. But I gutted through it, made a lot of mistakes, took my lumps and learned, and I got better every day. After going through that, I used to even tell other young guys that they probably wouldn't have "fun" in the job for a year or more. It takes a while to get a handle on even the basics of being an ops fighter pilot, and while it is "satisfying" sometimes it isn't fun. But what I can tell you with the benefit of experience is that if you CAN hang on, it WILL get fun. Maybe not tomorrow, or even next month, but if you can steel yourself a while it does get better. My own story is I went from my first squadron and went ops to ops, then to the FTU, and then to the ANG. Over 2000 hours and 15 years later I was damn glad I gutted through the first hard part, because it got very very good as time went on.
What you do NOT want to do is decide this is too hard and start sandbagging and accepting less than your best. Fight--I mean FIGHT--to get on the schedule. (Hint: Albie is "I'll be" Haigin' your sortie). Jump in the backseat--sit in on briefs if you aren't flying, and bust your ass to be the best scheduler/snako/planner/stan eval boy or whatever you are tasked to do. Make an appointment with your flt CC, DO or squadron commander and tell them you want to FLY. Ask them for advice on the best way to meet that goal, and then listen. Everyone has a different take, but odds are they will give you some solid pointers and appreciate your motivation and interest. You are a "virtual" Lt, and you need to fly to learn. What you don't do now is start pining for a return to ATC or an MC-12 tour to "escape" your current pain. It will get better. The biggest jerk is your squadron is probably due to PCS in less than 14 months, and in a year there will be 2 new flight CCs, a new DO, and a lot of new faces. If you don't like it today just give it time--it will change.
I suspect some of this is just the honeymoon of getting a fighter assignment wearing off and the reality of the challenges soaking in. Lots of guys have gone through this. Shake off those FAIP blues--you used to be someone and now you aren't. But--if you can grit your teeth, roll up your sleeves, and plow through this--you will be glad you did. You'll be more likely to get a better follow on assignment, more likely to get hired by the Guard, or more likely to get that call from the airline of your choice if you'll do a good job where you are right now.
Feel free to PM...I don't give out hugs but I can and will provide a boot in the ass with some real data points if it helps...
To the poster who said fighter time was less valuable than MC-12 or whatever, you really don't know what you are talking about. As someone who has helped about 3000 pilots get ready for airline interviews, I can point out some stuff that is valuable:
1. PIC Turbine
2. Instructor experience
3. Evaluator experience
In other words, a two tour F-16 guy with 1000 hours and IP quals is going to score higher than a guy flying C-130s or C-17s who has 2000 hours but only 500 PIC and is just an AC. At my company, I know of at least 5 guys hired with F-22 experience and a handful more that have been called for testing and interviews in 2013. Nothing wrong at all with flying an MC 12 or going to the AFA and flying the UV-18 if you want, but don't confuse what adds value to a resume. Excellence and advancement IN YOUR WEAPON SYSTEM stand out.
Next point--most airlines have pilots in the process who are somewhat familiar with the career tracks in the military. They can identify someone who has done exceptionally well, and also recognize someone who was just skating by. Not everyone can be an instructor in their first ops assignment, and sometimes hours are tougher to get due to fiscal or manning issues. You don't have to be on track to be a WIC IP or a general to have a "solid, reasonable" track record that will get you hired. At the same time, the pilot who coasts and makes no attempt to advance is identifiable as well. Coasting in your first tour at BMC rates, getting 300-350 hours, and then taking the first assignment out of the fighter business sends a signal too.
In my experience as an airline pilot, CFI, and fighter pilot for 20 years, what I have seen consistently is that if you are successful in one arena, you will generally be successful in the next one too. Of course there are exceptions, and I've seen where a pilot who was stifled in on part of his career managed to excel in another later on. However, those are the exceptions and not the rule. So most employers, including the Air National Guard, look at your past performance to gauge an idea of where you might go in your next position. I've seen several guys turned away from ANG units not because of poor flying skills, but poor work ethic on additional duties or poor squadron social skills. So--if you want advice--here it is regardless of whether you get out or stay in: Do the very best you can do, every day, every mission, all the ********* time. You will fail some days. You may get leapfrogged for an upgrade. It won't always be fair. But you will get some wins, and you will learn about yourself. And then--with a reputation for a solid work ethic, a proven work history, and some grit--you'll do well no matter which direction you go.
I feel uniquely qualified to give you this advice not because I'm older than you, but like you (and many others) I got to my first F-15 squadron as a young captain after a FAC tour. Like FAIPs, former Navs and WSOs, banked pilots, and late rated guys, I too showed up without the benefit of having a "Lt shield" in my first fighter squadron. It wasn't easy. But I gutted through it, made a lot of mistakes, took my lumps and learned, and I got better every day. After going through that, I used to even tell other young guys that they probably wouldn't have "fun" in the job for a year or more. It takes a while to get a handle on even the basics of being an ops fighter pilot, and while it is "satisfying" sometimes it isn't fun. But what I can tell you with the benefit of experience is that if you CAN hang on, it WILL get fun. Maybe not tomorrow, or even next month, but if you can steel yourself a while it does get better. My own story is I went from my first squadron and went ops to ops, then to the FTU, and then to the ANG. Over 2000 hours and 15 years later I was damn glad I gutted through the first hard part, because it got very very good as time went on.
What you do NOT want to do is decide this is too hard and start sandbagging and accepting less than your best. Fight--I mean FIGHT--to get on the schedule. (Hint: Albie is "I'll be" Haigin' your sortie). Jump in the backseat--sit in on briefs if you aren't flying, and bust your ass to be the best scheduler/snako/planner/stan eval boy or whatever you are tasked to do. Make an appointment with your flt CC, DO or squadron commander and tell them you want to FLY. Ask them for advice on the best way to meet that goal, and then listen. Everyone has a different take, but odds are they will give you some solid pointers and appreciate your motivation and interest. You are a "virtual" Lt, and you need to fly to learn. What you don't do now is start pining for a return to ATC or an MC-12 tour to "escape" your current pain. It will get better. The biggest jerk is your squadron is probably due to PCS in less than 14 months, and in a year there will be 2 new flight CCs, a new DO, and a lot of new faces. If you don't like it today just give it time--it will change.
I suspect some of this is just the honeymoon of getting a fighter assignment wearing off and the reality of the challenges soaking in. Lots of guys have gone through this. Shake off those FAIP blues--you used to be someone and now you aren't. But--if you can grit your teeth, roll up your sleeves, and plow through this--you will be glad you did. You'll be more likely to get a better follow on assignment, more likely to get hired by the Guard, or more likely to get that call from the airline of your choice if you'll do a good job where you are right now.
Feel free to PM...I don't give out hugs but I can and will provide a boot in the ass with some real data points if it helps...
12-02-2012, 04:12 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 737A
Posts: 1,890
Originally Posted by TweetIP
So here's a couple of big questions for those of you who have gone before me. Here's my situation:
I'm a pointy nose type that is really fed up. I am not the most charismatic type of person and am also pretty soft spoken. I have been able to rock my previous assignments but in my current squadron there are a lot of strong personalities and I feel like I've been kicked to the gutter because of it. I don't even come close to making RAP every month unless I start kicking and screaming and pointing out to people that I am on the schedule to fly once every 2-3 weeks and then they go, "Oh, no way, how did that happen?" They spend about a week trying to fly me a little and then back to the one flight every 2-3 weeks. I've gotten to the point that I have a dark cloud over my head and completely hate my job because I feel like I have to beg just to do what I have been trained to do. My ground job is also so small that I could get away with doing maybe 1-2 hours of it a week and would be probably spending more time on it than is needed even with that. (FWIW, I am new to this squadron and understand that being a new guy means that I have to work my way up a little but this seems really ridiculous.)
Also, I look all around me and everyone is unhappy and just can't wait to get out. It seems like every few weeks to a month someone new drops the bomb and lets everyone know that they are getting out. People aren't happy and I am one of them. Here are a couple of questions:
-For those who have been in my situation would you say that I really have been kicked to the curb? (It sure looks that way to me.)
-I am thinking about getting out and trying for the airlines but am really confused by the whole airline thing. My friends who fly for the airlines are telling me to stay in the AF and suck it up because they think it is better than going to the airlines. I am not sure that I agree. I am tired of competing for peanuts in the AF. Would do you say?
-I know this is a huge question but is it really going to be that good of a time to go to the airlines? I see lots of evidence that there is going to be a big hiring boom, but then just as much that the hiring boom is b.s. What say ye?
Anyway, please feel free to throw spears too because I am looking for genuine and honest advice!
I'm a pointy nose type that is really fed up. I am not the most charismatic type of person and am also pretty soft spoken. I have been able to rock my previous assignments but in my current squadron there are a lot of strong personalities and I feel like I've been kicked to the gutter because of it. I don't even come close to making RAP every month unless I start kicking and screaming and pointing out to people that I am on the schedule to fly once every 2-3 weeks and then they go, "Oh, no way, how did that happen?" They spend about a week trying to fly me a little and then back to the one flight every 2-3 weeks. I've gotten to the point that I have a dark cloud over my head and completely hate my job because I feel like I have to beg just to do what I have been trained to do. My ground job is also so small that I could get away with doing maybe 1-2 hours of it a week and would be probably spending more time on it than is needed even with that. (FWIW, I am new to this squadron and understand that being a new guy means that I have to work my way up a little but this seems really ridiculous.)
Also, I look all around me and everyone is unhappy and just can't wait to get out. It seems like every few weeks to a month someone new drops the bomb and lets everyone know that they are getting out. People aren't happy and I am one of them. Here are a couple of questions:
-For those who have been in my situation would you say that I really have been kicked to the curb? (It sure looks that way to me.)
-I am thinking about getting out and trying for the airlines but am really confused by the whole airline thing. My friends who fly for the airlines are telling me to stay in the AF and suck it up because they think it is better than going to the airlines. I am not sure that I agree. I am tired of competing for peanuts in the AF. Would do you say?
-I know this is a huge question but is it really going to be that good of a time to go to the airlines? I see lots of evidence that there is going to be a big hiring boom, but then just as much that the hiring boom is b.s. What say ye?
Anyway, please feel free to throw spears too because I am looking for genuine and honest advice!
12-02-2012, 04:45 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 662
Originally Posted by Pyro
Holy Bat**** running Robin....really? Your life sucks, but hell, I'll keep doing it? The only way to enjoy life is attached and not expecting to fly? The grass IS greener somewhere else and I advise you find it, going though life hating your job is nowhere to live. Follow his advice and you'll end up at a white jet base/UAS and then you WILL have some major stuff to complain about. I've seen one part of that side and no thanks.
1. I thought it sucked in the beginning too, but i enjoy life now, and looking back my worst experiences in terms of workload and watching people back stab and step over others to be #1 on the vml were when i was a young lt/capt in a ftr sq.
2. I dont advocate the personal surge mentality in an attempt to be #1 on the vml. I see it all the time...and all those that do it complain in secret to those they know who wont tell the OG....and then most bounce once the upt adsc is up.
3. I do advocate providing the best effort on a consistent basis and not stressing about where the chips fall...an even keel if you will. In the long run I believe this pays off the most in that your performance is good and your morale is still high enough to continue on. It has worked for me.
4. Staying in may have its drawbacks, like a 365. If that's not for you, bounce.
Lastly, I don't know where you guys fly, but for me, there are not extra sorties to go around. You hit your RAP rate for CMR or BMC and stop so others can meet theirs. A few exceptions every now and then based on availability, dudes on leave, etc...... No amount of lobbying on my part is going to get me 10 sorties a month. I get 5, and if I'm available and others aren't, I may get 6. Those who don't make RAP are a priority the next month. There is no favoritism. I can't imagine its much different elsewhere.
12-02-2012, 05:13 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: Wind checker
Posts: 763
Originally Posted by Albief15
So much bad info in this thread I don't know where to begin...
To the poster who said fighter time was less valuable than MC-12 or whatever, you really don't know what you are talking about. As someone who has helped about 3000 pilots get ready for airline interviews, I can point out some stuff that is valuable:
1. PIC Turbine
2. Instructor experience
3. Evaluator experience
In other words, a two tour F-16 guy with 1000 hours and IP quals is going to score higher than a guy flying C-130s or C-17s who has 2000 hours but only 500 PIC and is just an AC. At my company, I know of at least 5 guys hired with F-22 experience and a handful more that have been called for testing and interviews in 2013. Nothing wrong at all with flying an MC 12 or going to the AFA and flying the UV-18 if you want, but don't confuse what adds value to a resume. Excellence and advancement IN YOUR WEAPON SYSTEM stand out.
Next point--most airlines have pilots in the process who are somewhat familiar with the career tracks in the military. They can identify someone who has done exceptionally well, and also recognize someone who was just skating by. Not everyone can be an instructor in their first ops assignment, and sometimes hours are tougher to get due to fiscal or manning issues. You don't have to be on track to be a WIC IP or a general to have a "solid, reasonable" track record that will get you hired. At the same time, the pilot who coasts and makes no attempt to advance is identifiable as well. Coasting in your first tour at BMC rates, getting 300-350 hours, and then taking the first assignment out of the fighter business sends a signal too.
In my experience as an airline pilot, CFI, and fighter pilot for 20 years, what I have seen consistently is that if you are successful in one arena, you will generally be successful in the next one too. Of course there are exceptions, and I've seen where a pilot who was stifled in on part of his career managed to excel in another later on. However, those are the exceptions and not the rule. So most employers, including the Air National Guard, look at your past performance to gauge an idea of where you might go in your next position. I've seen several guys turned away from ANG units not because of poor flying skills, but poor work ethic on additional duties or poor squadron social skills. So--if you want advice--here it is regardless of whether you get out or stay in: Do the very best you can do, every day, every mission, all the ********* time. You will fail some days. You may get leapfrogged for an upgrade. It won't always be fair. But you will get some wins, and you will learn about yourself. And then--with a reputation for a solid work ethic, a proven work history, and some grit--you'll do well no matter which direction you go.
I feel uniquely qualified to give you this advice not because I'm older than you, but like you (and many others) I got to my first F-15 squadron as a young captain after a FAC tour. Like FAIPs, former Navs and WSOs, banked pilots, and late rated guys, I too showed up without the benefit of having a "Lt shield" in my first fighter squadron. It wasn't easy. But I gutted through it, made a lot of mistakes, took my lumps and learned, and I got better every day. After going through that, I used to even tell other young guys that they probably wouldn't have "fun" in the job for a year or more. It takes a while to get a handle on even the basics of being an ops fighter pilot, and while it is "satisfying" sometimes it isn't fun. But what I can tell you with the benefit of experience is that if you CAN hang on, it WILL get fun. Maybe not tomorrow, or even next month, but if you can steel yourself a while it does get better. My own story is I went from my first squadron and went ops to ops, then to the FTU, and then to the ANG. Over 2000 hours and 15 years later I was damn glad I gutted through the first hard part, because it got very very good as time went on.
What you do NOT want to do is decide this is too hard and start sandbagging and accepting less than your best. Fight--I mean FIGHT--to get on the schedule. (Hint: Albie is "I'll be" Haigin' your sortie). Jump in the backseat--sit in on briefs if you aren't flying, and bust your ass to be the best scheduler/snako/planner/stan eval boy or whatever you are tasked to do. Make an appointment with your flt CC, DO or squadron commander and tell them you want to FLY. Ask them for advice on the best way to meet that goal, and then listen. Everyone has a different take, but odds are they will give you some solid pointers and appreciate your motivation and interest. You are a "virtual" Lt, and you need to fly to learn. What you don't do now is start pining for a return to ATC or an MC-12 tour to "escape" your current pain. It will get better. The biggest jerk is your squadron is probably due to PCS in less than 14 months, and in a year there will be 2 new flight CCs, a new DO, and a lot of new faces. If you don't like it today just give it time--it will change.
I suspect some of this is just the honeymoon of getting a fighter assignment wearing off and the reality of the challenges soaking in. Lots of guys have gone through this. Shake off those FAIP blues--you used to be someone and now you aren't. But--if you can grit your teeth, roll up your sleeves, and plow through this--you will be glad you did. You'll be more likely to get a better follow on assignment, more likely to get hired by the Guard, or more likely to get that call from the airline of your choice if you'll do a good job where you are right now.
Feel free to PM...I don't give out hugs but I can and will provide a boot in the ass with some real data points if it helps...
To the poster who said fighter time was less valuable than MC-12 or whatever, you really don't know what you are talking about. As someone who has helped about 3000 pilots get ready for airline interviews, I can point out some stuff that is valuable:
1. PIC Turbine
2. Instructor experience
3. Evaluator experience
In other words, a two tour F-16 guy with 1000 hours and IP quals is going to score higher than a guy flying C-130s or C-17s who has 2000 hours but only 500 PIC and is just an AC. At my company, I know of at least 5 guys hired with F-22 experience and a handful more that have been called for testing and interviews in 2013. Nothing wrong at all with flying an MC 12 or going to the AFA and flying the UV-18 if you want, but don't confuse what adds value to a resume. Excellence and advancement IN YOUR WEAPON SYSTEM stand out.
Next point--most airlines have pilots in the process who are somewhat familiar with the career tracks in the military. They can identify someone who has done exceptionally well, and also recognize someone who was just skating by. Not everyone can be an instructor in their first ops assignment, and sometimes hours are tougher to get due to fiscal or manning issues. You don't have to be on track to be a WIC IP or a general to have a "solid, reasonable" track record that will get you hired. At the same time, the pilot who coasts and makes no attempt to advance is identifiable as well. Coasting in your first tour at BMC rates, getting 300-350 hours, and then taking the first assignment out of the fighter business sends a signal too.
In my experience as an airline pilot, CFI, and fighter pilot for 20 years, what I have seen consistently is that if you are successful in one arena, you will generally be successful in the next one too. Of course there are exceptions, and I've seen where a pilot who was stifled in on part of his career managed to excel in another later on. However, those are the exceptions and not the rule. So most employers, including the Air National Guard, look at your past performance to gauge an idea of where you might go in your next position. I've seen several guys turned away from ANG units not because of poor flying skills, but poor work ethic on additional duties or poor squadron social skills. So--if you want advice--here it is regardless of whether you get out or stay in: Do the very best you can do, every day, every mission, all the ********* time. You will fail some days. You may get leapfrogged for an upgrade. It won't always be fair. But you will get some wins, and you will learn about yourself. And then--with a reputation for a solid work ethic, a proven work history, and some grit--you'll do well no matter which direction you go.
I feel uniquely qualified to give you this advice not because I'm older than you, but like you (and many others) I got to my first F-15 squadron as a young captain after a FAC tour. Like FAIPs, former Navs and WSOs, banked pilots, and late rated guys, I too showed up without the benefit of having a "Lt shield" in my first fighter squadron. It wasn't easy. But I gutted through it, made a lot of mistakes, took my lumps and learned, and I got better every day. After going through that, I used to even tell other young guys that they probably wouldn't have "fun" in the job for a year or more. It takes a while to get a handle on even the basics of being an ops fighter pilot, and while it is "satisfying" sometimes it isn't fun. But what I can tell you with the benefit of experience is that if you CAN hang on, it WILL get fun. Maybe not tomorrow, or even next month, but if you can steel yourself a while it does get better. My own story is I went from my first squadron and went ops to ops, then to the FTU, and then to the ANG. Over 2000 hours and 15 years later I was damn glad I gutted through the first hard part, because it got very very good as time went on.
What you do NOT want to do is decide this is too hard and start sandbagging and accepting less than your best. Fight--I mean FIGHT--to get on the schedule. (Hint: Albie is "I'll be" Haigin' your sortie). Jump in the backseat--sit in on briefs if you aren't flying, and bust your ass to be the best scheduler/snako/planner/stan eval boy or whatever you are tasked to do. Make an appointment with your flt CC, DO or squadron commander and tell them you want to FLY. Ask them for advice on the best way to meet that goal, and then listen. Everyone has a different take, but odds are they will give you some solid pointers and appreciate your motivation and interest. You are a "virtual" Lt, and you need to fly to learn. What you don't do now is start pining for a return to ATC or an MC-12 tour to "escape" your current pain. It will get better. The biggest jerk is your squadron is probably due to PCS in less than 14 months, and in a year there will be 2 new flight CCs, a new DO, and a lot of new faces. If you don't like it today just give it time--it will change.
I suspect some of this is just the honeymoon of getting a fighter assignment wearing off and the reality of the challenges soaking in. Lots of guys have gone through this. Shake off those FAIP blues--you used to be someone and now you aren't. But--if you can grit your teeth, roll up your sleeves, and plow through this--you will be glad you did. You'll be more likely to get a better follow on assignment, more likely to get hired by the Guard, or more likely to get that call from the airline of your choice if you'll do a good job where you are right now.
Feel free to PM...I don't give out hugs but I can and will provide a boot in the ass with some real data points if it helps...
I'm one of the 3,000....with a successful job search. He knows what he's talking about.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
