To VSP or not to VSP?
01-29-2014, 05:48 PM
#31
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
Originally Posted by BUFFy
I've been thinking about this nonstop for weeks. Can't decide. Mostly worried about family life as an airline pilot. Are there schedules out there where you can fly mostly out and backs?
01-29-2014, 09:26 PM
#33
Slowing to holding speed
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: middle seat
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by MikeF16
This is cut and pasted from the SWA application site:
"**PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot in Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander n the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered."
Because SWA only has categories for PIC, SIC, and IP any student time does not get counted. It's likely there are others but I've got so many apps in I'm not going to double check every single one.
"**PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot in Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander n the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered."
Because SWA only has categories for PIC, SIC, and IP any student time does not get counted. It's likely there are others but I've got so many apps in I'm not going to double check every single one.
01-30-2014, 01:01 AM
#34
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by Nextlife
I haven't applied, so haven't seen the application site, but the SWA website lists "Total Time" mins, then seperately lists the above PIC definition. Does the app use the same "not simply sole manipulator of the controls" along with PIC, SIC, IP wording to define total time as well? As a late rated fighter guy and having gone through CCIP in every squadron I've been in, dropping 250 hours of turbine time (UPT+IFF) hurts. Using that definition, you can have a COMM AMEL rating with zero hours countable towards SWA. (I know you wouldn't apply to any airline at that point, but it highlights the hour hit). But, if it's your company, you can set any rules you want.
This is from AA FAQ's:
Q: What are the differences between PIC, SIC and Instructor Time when logged into the Flight Hours?
A: Here are the guidelines:
PIC (Pilot In Command) = Any time you signed for the plane as aircraft commander
or solo including all instructor time.
SIC (Second In Command) = Any time you acted as second in command and/or didn't sign for the plane.
This DOES include dual/student time.
Instructor = Only the time you logged as an instructor, regardless of the time being reported in PIC.
Instructor time is PIC time. It belongs in both columns.
I have not found this on SWA's app site. So like MikeF16 said we have to carefully check each app for what the specific airline wants
01-30-2014, 03:18 PM
#36
Otto
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Position: Turkish Pile Driver
Posts: 1,806
Originally Posted by Moosecall
AA wants you to count it
This is from AA FAQ's:
Q: What are the differences between PIC, SIC and Instructor Time when logged into the Flight Hours?
A: Here are the guidelines:
PIC (Pilot In Command) = Any time you signed for the plane as aircraft commander
or solo including all instructor time.
SIC (Second In Command) = Any time you acted as second in command and/or didn't sign for the plane.
This DOES include dual/student time.
Instructor = Only the time you logged as an instructor, regardless of the time being reported in PIC.
Instructor time is PIC time. It belongs in both columns.
I have not found this on SWA's app site. So like MikeF16 said we have to carefully check each app for what the specific airline wants
This is from AA FAQ's:
Q: What are the differences between PIC, SIC and Instructor Time when logged into the Flight Hours?
A: Here are the guidelines:
PIC (Pilot In Command) = Any time you signed for the plane as aircraft commander
or solo including all instructor time.
SIC (Second In Command) = Any time you acted as second in command and/or didn't sign for the plane.
This DOES include dual/student time.
Instructor = Only the time you logged as an instructor, regardless of the time being reported in PIC.
Instructor time is PIC time. It belongs in both columns.
I have not found this on SWA's app site. So like MikeF16 said we have to carefully check each app for what the specific airline wants
Originally Posted by tunes
not counting UPT time is like saying you can't count any civilian time while training before actually taking your PPL check ride.....
Airlines get to make the rules we get to follow them. BTW, just as you said, you can't count any time prior to your PPL on the SWA application. If you happen to be competing with me though, I'll be more than happy for you to tell the airlines how dumb their application procedures are...
01-30-2014, 08:34 PM
#37
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
Originally Posted by BUFFy
Wow thanks!!!
What about DFW? Heard they had a base there too...do you fly for them?
What about DFW? Heard they had a base there too...do you fly for them?
01-30-2014, 08:38 PM
#38
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
Originally Posted by MikeF16
TY for this, I didn't notice that in the Q&A section, bought me around another 400 hours on my AA application.
*shrug*
Airlines get to make the rules we get to follow them. BTW, just as you said, you can't count any time prior to your PPL on the SWA application. If you happen to be competing with me though, I'll be more than happy for you to tell the airlines how dumb their application procedures are...
*shrug*
Airlines get to make the rules we get to follow them. BTW, just as you said, you can't count any time prior to your PPL on the SWA application. If you happen to be competing with me though, I'll be more than happy for you to tell the airlines how dumb their application procedures are...
01-31-2014, 03:08 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,504
Originally Posted by MikeF16
*shrug*
Airlines get to make the rules we get to follow them. BTW, just as you said, you can't count any time prior to your PPL on the SWA application. If you happen to be competing with me though, I'll be more than happy for you to tell the airlines how dumb their application procedures are...
Airlines get to make the rules we get to follow them. BTW, just as you said, you can't count any time prior to your PPL on the SWA application. If you happen to be competing with me though, I'll be more than happy for you to tell the airlines how dumb their application procedures are...
all it says:
Flight Experience: 2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours Turbine total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in Command is required2. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed-wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO, etc. NO other time is counted.3
1 A Candidate may apply without a B-737 Type Rating. If a candidate interviews and successfully completes the entire selection process, he/she has six months from the date to obtain a B-737 Type Rating to be eligible for hire.
2 PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot in Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered.
3 Military Conversion: When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or 18 minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time.
1 A Candidate may apply without a B-737 Type Rating. If a candidate interviews and successfully completes the entire selection process, he/she has six months from the date to obtain a B-737 Type Rating to be eligible for hire.
2 PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot in Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered.
3 Military Conversion: When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or 18 minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time.
01-31-2014, 05:20 AM
#40
Otto
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Position: Turkish Pile Driver
Posts: 1,806
Originally Posted by tunes
actually it doesn't say that anywhere......
all it says:
all it says:
"2 PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot in Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered. "
The very 1st sentence says sole manipulator of controls does not imply PIC for their application, it could be a little confusing if this applies to all applicants or just mil. The 2nd sentence then gets specific to military personnel where there is absolutely no gray area. For me it was <30 hours so not worth arguing over. Listen, this debate is fruitless -- I can fill out my application and you can fill out yours. SWA is renowned for confronting people on their log book. If you feel you can justify what you put down on the application in the interview process then go ahead and do it.
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