Fly604LV

I’m on here to give my personal experience at Cirrus and when I did I was immediately attacked and told it was a sock account. It was the only way I saw to legitimize my post. You can go on the FAA website and find all this info about any pilot in the country.

I think it’s one thing when people bad mouth other companies (especially when their company has a contract with ours) and need to keep their identity confidential out of fear. I on the other hand have enjoyed most places I’ve worked and would never do that.

Pilots that are interested in flying for Cirrus can see that maybe it’s not all doom and gloom over here.

To each there own.

LLWS09R

To be clear the contract between companies has zero to do with pilot contract and QOL. It’s there to allow quick recovery for customer experience. Yes my company does have pilot sign a contract. However I haven’t even heard a rumor they have ever gone after anyone. The could have easily placed a confession of judgement in it they did not. And part of the contract states how a pilot work environment will be or the contract would not be enforceable.

Fly604LV

It’s understood that the two contracts we are talking about are completely different and have nothing to do with one another. My point is not to throw stones in a glass house. It’s bad form to talk bad about a company that your company uses at times and you have no first hand knowledge about.

As far as the confession of judgment goes and training contracts go. Just stick at least a year out when you go somewhere that’s put significant money into you with a new type rating.

Not only are you then keeping your word, but when your resume is looked at by potential employers in the future it looks good.

LLWS09R

I don’t disagree with you on the training contract concept. Where are differences lie is that is your contract directly tied in with promises made by your company? IE..you ( a Cirrus Pilot) is guaranteed 8 days off a month in base or the contract becomes not enforceable ? Or is it just the “promise” made outside the contract that would not stand up 10 seconds in court if you (Cirrus) happen to change Their minds about the number of days off as operation demands?

I will tell you that’s where the real question arises. Tell your company to put their skin in the game. If you are confident your company has made the right changes put it in writing. That’s the real test of this whole argument. Working at small part 135 operations is like buying a used car “buyer beware”. But prove me wrong show me a contract with guarantee schedule and pay with vacation sick time and training during off days written directly as a condition of the enforcement of a training contract. And like you do to pilots put a confession of judgement against the company for failing to uphold their end of the deal?????

Fly604LV

Everything above is in writing now. It’s a company document that I won’t post here.

I don’t disagree with you on the company’s word and enforcement of the training contract going hand in hand. I can’t speak for other pilots but for me everything that’s either been in writing or promised to me by management has been respected. So maybe these things are being worked on. Like I said in my first post. The pay and work rules have been changed for the better about every 6 months since I started.

GoneMissed

Fair enough. But shouldn’t a training contract suffice?

Why still have the confession of judgement? The vast majority (probably over 90% would be my guess) of 135 operators do not have one. Not trying to troll, just trying to understand the logic behind it.

Cirrus would love to have you as the new pilot work for them but they don’t trust you , so you should do them a favor and sign a confession of judgement because signing a training contact isn’t enough.

They are assuming at the get go that you ,as the new hire, will not do right by them, but they want you ,the new hire, to trust them in return. The way I see it is that trust is a two way street and this set up may make some potential new hires hesitant to sign on the dotted line.

I know a couple of good guys who also didn’t join because of the Confession of judgement. These were solid individuals and are not the types who wouldn’t honor their training contract.

It seems to me that a confession of judgement is entirely in favor of the employer; and the pilot has nothing really to stand on.

Like I said some are ok with it because they truly don’t understand what a confession of judgement is while others are not ok with it. But I do know Cirrus lost some great potential new hires because of it. And I have a feeling they will continue do so as long as that confession of judgement is still part of the contract. Just doesn’t seem like a savvy business tactic if they are trying to attract ,and more importantly, retain talent in their pilot ranks to help grow the company.

Living in a cool affordable city in a no income tax state flying to some cool spots would be one of those jobs you only hear about by word of mouth because turnover is low; but instead they constantly advertise on the orange site due to presumably high turnover.

It can’t be because they have so many bad seeds amongst their pilot group. If they do, the question is why do they attract pilots such as those. I guess that is akin to asking what came first the chicken or the egg?

ESQ702

I’m a NV lawyer and have had third parties sign a confession of judgment before.

The confession language is key, but even if it is overly broad, it doesn’t allow for unlimited enforcement. If you breach your one year agreement they can skip the expense of suing you to get a judgment (i.e., a piece of paper saying that Cirrus has the right to collect $xxx from you) and go right to seeking to have you pay them back (because you gave them the right to a judgment if you breach your promise). From the employer’s perspective it’s a cost savings move. Lawsuits of any kind are expensive.

As an employee you still have plenty of rights (such as Cirrus not taking more than you promise to pay in the contract). I can’t imagine Cirrus is the only one doing this (majorpilot above seems to think they are), but my TT is still low enough that I can’t say with certainty.

The confession isn’t a big deal to me, but I’ve used and dealt with them for years in my law career. If you fulfill your promise over one year (or whatever the contract term is) you’re good. If you don’t, you’ll pay what you promise to in the contract. This is the same as any other contract except that you skip the lawsuit phase of the collection effort by your employer. The key, as an employee, is to get everything in writing (no oral contract that you sign a confession on ever!).

Also, before anyone freaks out, I don’t know anyone who works for, or owns, Cirrus Aviation here in Vegas. Frankly, I had not heard of them before until their profile popped up on this website.

Just my $0.02.

GoneMissed

Esq702
I think most of us get that monies will be owed . It is how it gets triggered which is problematic.

The issue arises if in the interview you tell me one thing, I get through with my training and when I am flying the line you as the employer pull a complete 180 from what was told/promised in terms of schedule, days off, etc.. Now I am stuck because if I want to leave, you dangle that confession of judgement in front of me and I know I am on the hook for the training.

Employment is a two way street but if the employer decides to change the terms and conditions 180 degrees at will as to what was promised/agreed, I can’t leave without incurring significant financial loss. That is the issue.

And confessions of judgement are EXTREMELY rare in aviation.

LLWS09R

I’m not sure your understanding the point of view on this forum. It’s not about the company being protected from a pilot using it for a free type rating. It’s the point pilots are concerned about being protected from your company. If your company decides your 10 days off a month does not benefit them and changes the rules unilaterally. Pilot want skin in the game from a company before they become slave labor. This is what pilots are saying they are concerned over Cirrus non standard way of conducting business. (IE keeping free points hotel points). Your legal theory may have merit. But in no ways does your training contract protect a pilot from unilateral changes put forth by your company. Unless Cirrus puts it in writing as a condition of the training contract. A pilot has no protection and everything to lose. Or did you skip that day in law school? You and your fellow personalities believe Cirrus has done nothing wrong to promote that Stereotype. However as many other pilots have stated on this forum. They have a long road to prove they have changed.
Verbal promise made in an interview (unless recorded) are not admissible in court. The only thing admissible in court is what’s in writing. You have yet to state if certain condition such as days off, vacation days, sick days, training,etc.. Are specified in the training contract?

GoneMissed

FWIW, I may be wrong but I do not recall seeing anything like that in my contract (will check though). That is why the confession of judgement was a deal breaker as from what I recall most of what was promised was verbal.

Edit: checked ;none, of those conditions were listed in the contract