Cirrus Aviation has Immediate Openings
12-24-2019 | 05:29 PM
#111
On Reserve
Joined: Dec 2019
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Fair enough. But shouldn’t a training contract suffice?
Why still have the confession of judgement? The vast majority (probably over 90% would be my guess) of 135 operators do not have one. Not trying to troll, just trying to understand the logic behind it.
Cirrus would love to have you as the new pilot work for them but they don’t trust you , so you should do them a favor and sign a confession of judgement because signing a training contact isn’t enough.
They are assuming at the get go that you ,as the new hire, will not do right by them, but they want you ,the new hire, to trust them in return. The way I see it is that trust is a two way street and this set up may make some potential new hires hesitant to sign on the dotted line.
I know a couple of good guys who also didn’t join because of the Confession of judgement. These were solid individuals and are not the types who wouldn’t honor their training contract.
It seems to me that a confession of judgement is entirely in favor of the employer; and the pilot has nothing really to stand on.
Like I said some are ok with it because they truly don’t understand what a confession of judgement is while others are not ok with it. But I do know Cirrus lost some great potential new hires because of it. And I have a feeling they will continue do so as long as that confession of judgement is still part of the contract. Just doesn’t seem like a savvy business tactic if they are trying to attract ,and more importantly, retain talent in their pilot ranks to help grow the company.
Living in a cool affordable city in a no income tax state flying to some cool spots would be one of those jobs you only hear about by word of mouth because turnover is low; but instead they constantly advertise on the orange site due to presumably high turnover.
It can’t be because they have so many bad seeds amongst their pilot group. If they do, the question is why do they attract pilots such as those. I guess that is akin to asking what came first the chicken or the egg?
Why still have the confession of judgement? The vast majority (probably over 90% would be my guess) of 135 operators do not have one. Not trying to troll, just trying to understand the logic behind it.
Cirrus would love to have you as the new pilot work for them but they don’t trust you , so you should do them a favor and sign a confession of judgement because signing a training contact isn’t enough.
They are assuming at the get go that you ,as the new hire, will not do right by them, but they want you ,the new hire, to trust them in return. The way I see it is that trust is a two way street and this set up may make some potential new hires hesitant to sign on the dotted line.
I know a couple of good guys who also didn’t join because of the Confession of judgement. These were solid individuals and are not the types who wouldn’t honor their training contract.
It seems to me that a confession of judgement is entirely in favor of the employer; and the pilot has nothing really to stand on.
Like I said some are ok with it because they truly don’t understand what a confession of judgement is while others are not ok with it. But I do know Cirrus lost some great potential new hires because of it. And I have a feeling they will continue do so as long as that confession of judgement is still part of the contract. Just doesn’t seem like a savvy business tactic if they are trying to attract ,and more importantly, retain talent in their pilot ranks to help grow the company.
Living in a cool affordable city in a no income tax state flying to some cool spots would be one of those jobs you only hear about by word of mouth because turnover is low; but instead they constantly advertise on the orange site due to presumably high turnover.
It can’t be because they have so many bad seeds amongst their pilot group. If they do, the question is why do they attract pilots such as those. I guess that is akin to asking what came first the chicken or the egg?
As I’ve said in a few of my other posts, I’m happy I signed and have really enjoyed my time here so far.
Having been here a while now I figured out why they put the confession of judgement with the contract. There had been more than a handful of guys get hired, went to training, got a type rating then never flew the line 1 day.
How many times can that happen before the aircraft owners get really upset and maybe sell.
In my opinion over the last couple years Cirrus has been doing all the right things to keep pilots from leaving. But these things don’t happen overnight. There’s still work to be done.
12-24-2019 | 05:56 PM
#112
Fly or Die
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 502
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Esq702
I think most of us get that monies will be owed . It is how it gets triggered which is problematic.
The issue arises if in the interview you tell me one thing, I get through with my training and when I am flying the line you as the employer pull a complete 180 from what was told/promised in terms of schedule, days off, etc.. Now I am stuck because if I want to leave, you dangle that confession of judgement in front of me and I know I am on the hook for the training.
Employment is a two way street but if the employer decides to change the terms and conditions 180 degrees at will as to what was promised/agreed, I can’t leave without incurring significant financial loss. That is the issue.
And confessions of judgement are EXTREMELY rare in aviation.
I think most of us get that monies will be owed . It is how it gets triggered which is problematic.
The issue arises if in the interview you tell me one thing, I get through with my training and when I am flying the line you as the employer pull a complete 180 from what was told/promised in terms of schedule, days off, etc.. Now I am stuck because if I want to leave, you dangle that confession of judgement in front of me and I know I am on the hook for the training.
Employment is a two way street but if the employer decides to change the terms and conditions 180 degrees at will as to what was promised/agreed, I can’t leave without incurring significant financial loss. That is the issue.
And confessions of judgement are EXTREMELY rare in aviation.
12-24-2019 | 06:01 PM
#113
Fly or Die
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 502
Likes: 0
I’m not sure your understanding the point of view on this forum. It’s not about the company being protected from a pilot using it for a free type rating. It’s the point pilots are concerned about being protected from your company. If your company decides your 10 days off a month does not benefit them and changes the rules unilaterally. Pilot want skin in the game from a company before they become slave labor. This is what pilots are saying they are concerned over Cirrus non standard way of conducting business. (IE keeping free points hotel points). Your legal theory may have merit. But in no ways does your training contract protect a pilot from unilateral changes put forth by your company. Unless Cirrus puts it in writing as a condition of the training contract. A pilot has no protection and everything to lose. Or did you skip that day in law school? You and your fellow personalities believe Cirrus has done nothing wrong to promote that Stereotype. However as many other pilots have stated on this forum. They have a long road to prove they have changed.
Verbal promise made in an interview (unless recorded) are not admissible in court. The only thing admissible in court is what’s in writing. You have yet to state if certain condition such as days off, vacation days, sick days, training,etc.. Are specified in the training contract?
Verbal promise made in an interview (unless recorded) are not admissible in court. The only thing admissible in court is what’s in writing. You have yet to state if certain condition such as days off, vacation days, sick days, training,etc.. Are specified in the training contract?
My point is that the confession isn’t a big deal if there is a corresponding contract to go with it that everyone signs. The contract could also have details on the other issues that you refer to above.
The contract, done right, would also address what happens with the amount owed to the company if things drastically change (like some of the examples you refer to above). I have no idea what Cirrus’ contract says.
For me, I would just sit on the cash bonus a company gives if it is tied to a contract. If the contract is tied to training (no cash paid upon hire) it’s ideal to have the penalty amount around in case you need to go early, but that’s easier said than done obviously.
12-24-2019 | 06:16 PM
#114
On Reserve
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 15
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If you sign a contract and a confession and the company fails to follow the terms of the contract, the confession won’t work. I highlighted the need for a written contract above. If you just take the interview at face value and sign a confession and not a contract to go with the confession then you screwed up.
If they didn’t hold up their bargain at 8 or 9 months I’d have been sending out resumes and finding something better after the contract was up.
I don’t lower the standards of how I conduct myself because another person or company doesn’t conduct themselves well. At that point are you any better than them?
12-24-2019 | 06:47 PM
#115
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
604LV
A couple of points to ponder
1) the type rating training contract is a promissary note. It is a one year prorated contract. That should suffice. A pilot leaves after 9 months and he owes what is left. A confession of judgement in unnecessary.
2) my understanding is that maybe those guys didn't fly the line because they washed out of training. That is why Cirrus started doing more pre hire sim evals.
3) if those guys didnt wash out and left the company, the company/owner would recoup the cost of training via the confession of judgement.
4) herein lies the rub. The guys that get screwed are the line guys on the 60 and 45 etc waiting for relief. Now they can't get days off because the pilots who were supposed to come on line didn't pass training. So now the promised 10 days off for those guys is down to 3 or 4 and they are stuck because of the confession of judgement they signed. So now these line guys are waiting for relief its not coming and when their one year is up they are out. And then the company needs to hire a replacement so the cycle continues.
5) you seem like the decent sort of guy the company needs.
Sorry for typos typing from phone.
Merry Christmas to all
Cheers
A couple of points to ponder
1) the type rating training contract is a promissary note. It is a one year prorated contract. That should suffice. A pilot leaves after 9 months and he owes what is left. A confession of judgement in unnecessary.
2) my understanding is that maybe those guys didn't fly the line because they washed out of training. That is why Cirrus started doing more pre hire sim evals.
3) if those guys didnt wash out and left the company, the company/owner would recoup the cost of training via the confession of judgement.
4) herein lies the rub. The guys that get screwed are the line guys on the 60 and 45 etc waiting for relief. Now they can't get days off because the pilots who were supposed to come on line didn't pass training. So now the promised 10 days off for those guys is down to 3 or 4 and they are stuck because of the confession of judgement they signed. So now these line guys are waiting for relief its not coming and when their one year is up they are out. And then the company needs to hire a replacement so the cycle continues.
5) you seem like the decent sort of guy the company needs.
Sorry for typos typing from phone.
Merry Christmas to all
Cheers
12-24-2019 | 06:52 PM
#116
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
My point is that the confession isn’t a big deal if there is a corresponding contract to go with it that everyone signs. The contract could also have details on the other issues that you refer to above.
12-24-2019 | 07:15 PM
#117
On Reserve
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
604LV
A couple of points to ponder
1) the type rating training contract is a promissary note. It is a one year prorated contract. That should suffice. A pilot leaves after 9 months and he owes what is left. A confession of judgement in unnecessary.
2) my understanding is that maybe those guys didn't fly the line because they washed out of training. That is why Cirrus started doing more pre hire sim evals.
3) if those guys didnt wash out and left the company, the company/owner would recoup the cost of training via the confession of judgement.
4) herein lies the rub. The guys that get screwed are the line guys on the 60 and 45 etc waiting for relief. Now they can't get days off because the pilots who were supposed to come on line didn't pass training. So now the promised 10 days off for those guys is down to 3 or 4 and they are stuck because of the confession of judgement they signed. So now these line guys are waiting for relief its not coming and when their one year is up they are out. And then the company needs to hire a replacement so the cycle continues.
5) you seem like the decent sort of guy the company needs.
Sorry for typos typing from phone.
Merry Christmas to all
Cheers
A couple of points to ponder
1) the type rating training contract is a promissary note. It is a one year prorated contract. That should suffice. A pilot leaves after 9 months and he owes what is left. A confession of judgement in unnecessary.
2) my understanding is that maybe those guys didn't fly the line because they washed out of training. That is why Cirrus started doing more pre hire sim evals.
3) if those guys didnt wash out and left the company, the company/owner would recoup the cost of training via the confession of judgement.
4) herein lies the rub. The guys that get screwed are the line guys on the 60 and 45 etc waiting for relief. Now they can't get days off because the pilots who were supposed to come on line didn't pass training. So now the promised 10 days off for those guys is down to 3 or 4 and they are stuck because of the confession of judgement they signed. So now these line guys are waiting for relief its not coming and when their one year is up they are out. And then the company needs to hire a replacement so the cycle continues.
5) you seem like the decent sort of guy the company needs.
Sorry for typos typing from phone.
Merry Christmas to all
Cheers
2. I don’t know the percentage of each, but some washed out, some took other jobs right after training.
3. After money is spent on an attorney and if they have the money to pay it back. It could take a lot of time and effort to get that back.
4. I can’t really argue here because I enjoy the extra money to be made working days off. Definitely understand the frustration for guys that just want the days off and don’t care about extra cash. I think the new pay, benefits, and time off should make this exponentially better. May take 3-6 months to fully implement though.
5. Thanks, I appreciate it.
Merry Christmas!
12-24-2019 | 07:16 PM
#118
On Reserve
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 15
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12-24-2019 | 07:36 PM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 162
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I’d pay money to see that! It’s not that I don’t believe you. I’m amazed with in the span of a day or so you went from having a confession of judgement contract to keys to the Emerald city for a pilot. Hats off to you if you work that fast. The story I read a few post up about Lear 60/45 pilots going from 10days to 4days due to lack of flight crews seems about right. And that’s why I warn all aviators be careful when deciding on any company.
12-24-2019 | 07:36 PM
#120
Fly or Die
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 502
Likes: 0
I don’t want to argue and I hope I haven’t offended anyone involved in this discussion. I don’t know much about Cirrus and just wanted to share my view on the confession from a legal perspective. Thankfully there are plenty of options out there for those who aren’t interested in Cirrus, whatever the reason.
Good luck to all.
Good luck to all.
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