Cirrus Aviation has Immediate Openings
03-14-2020, 01:38 AM
#181
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by majorpilot
I am just asking legitimate questions and calling “BS” on a CoJ being not a big deal and not screwing pilots.
I am not trying to embarrass anyone. But even if I were trying I could not a better job than this “Champion of the CoJ” is doing on his own, to himself and his company.
I’ve never heard of an employer in ANY field using this litigation remedy to secure contract performance. Tech and finance companies whose employees walk out of the office every day with millions of dollars in their head aren’t asked to sign these.
Defending using CoJs unilaterally against employees is frankly offensive. Eventually perhaps a motivated lawyer may inflict an expensive lesson in basic decency.
I am not trying to embarrass anyone. But even if I were trying I could not a better job than this “Champion of the CoJ” is doing on his own, to himself and his company.
I’ve never heard of an employer in ANY field using this litigation remedy to secure contract performance. Tech and finance companies whose employees walk out of the office every day with millions of dollars in their head aren’t asked to sign these.
Defending using CoJs unilaterally against employees is frankly offensive. Eventually perhaps a motivated lawyer may inflict an expensive lesson in basic decency.
03-14-2020, 10:54 AM
#182
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 17
Making a statement doesn’t make it a fact. Do your own research on our Company. The Pay, Schedules, Benefits are all listed on the Profile page. If you are selected for an interview then you will receive a copy of the Company Overview outlining our Company Policies & Procedures.
We do require a Training Contract and a COJ. The Confession of Judgement is a written agreement where you agree to the liability of the training contract. I would suggest reviewing it with an attorney to make sure you understand it completely. Talk to our pilots...we have 54 pilots and I’m sure not all of them are happy but I guarantee you they will all say that we are fair and treat them with respect. We do what we say we are going to do...
Now, there may have been a time (years ago) where there wasn’t policies wrote out and promised like they are today. But that was before my time and the struggles of a smaller operation. Right, wrong, or indifferent these are all things of the past.
I’m not going to address these two guys above because it wouldn’t matter what I said they would try to find some fault about the way we do things. Blanket statements without knowing the specifics is not a very intelligent way to make a point. Is it perfect? No, it’s not. But we are evolving and we listen to our employees. We know they are the reason for our success and our goal is to attract and retain good pilots. Best wishes and fly safe.
We do require a Training Contract and a COJ. The Confession of Judgement is a written agreement where you agree to the liability of the training contract. I would suggest reviewing it with an attorney to make sure you understand it completely. Talk to our pilots...we have 54 pilots and I’m sure not all of them are happy but I guarantee you they will all say that we are fair and treat them with respect. We do what we say we are going to do...
Now, there may have been a time (years ago) where there wasn’t policies wrote out and promised like they are today. But that was before my time and the struggles of a smaller operation. Right, wrong, or indifferent these are all things of the past.
I’m not going to address these two guys above because it wouldn’t matter what I said they would try to find some fault about the way we do things. Blanket statements without knowing the specifics is not a very intelligent way to make a point. Is it perfect? No, it’s not. But we are evolving and we listen to our employees. We know they are the reason for our success and our goal is to attract and retain good pilots. Best wishes and fly safe.
03-14-2020, 11:18 AM
#183
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by ChallengerCP
Making a statement doesn’t make it a fact. Do your own research on our Company. The Pay, Schedules, Benefits are all listed on the Profile page. If you are selected for an interview then you will receive a copy of the Company Overview outlining our Company Policies & Procedures.
We do require a Training Contract and a COJ. The Confession of Judgement is a written agreement where you agree to the liability of the training contract. I would suggest reviewing it with an attorney to make sure you understand it completely. Talk to our pilots...we have 54 pilots and I’m sure not all of them are happy but I guarantee you they will all say that we are fair and treat them with respect. We do what we say we are going to do...
Now, there may have been a time (years ago) where there wasn’t policies wrote out and promised like they are today. But that was before my time and the struggles of a smaller operation. Right, wrong, or indifferent these are all things of the past.
I’m not going to address these two guys above because it wouldn’t matter what I said they would try to find some fault about the way we do things. Blanket statements without knowing the specifics is not a very intelligent way to make a point. Is it perfect? No, it’s not. But we are evolving and we listen to our employees. We know they are the reason for our success and our goal is to attract and retain good pilots. Best wishes and fly safe.
We do require a Training Contract and a COJ. The Confession of Judgement is a written agreement where you agree to the liability of the training contract. I would suggest reviewing it with an attorney to make sure you understand it completely. Talk to our pilots...we have 54 pilots and I’m sure not all of them are happy but I guarantee you they will all say that we are fair and treat them with respect. We do what we say we are going to do...
Now, there may have been a time (years ago) where there wasn’t policies wrote out and promised like they are today. But that was before my time and the struggles of a smaller operation. Right, wrong, or indifferent these are all things of the past.
I’m not going to address these two guys above because it wouldn’t matter what I said they would try to find some fault about the way we do things. Blanket statements without knowing the specifics is not a very intelligent way to make a point. Is it perfect? No, it’s not. But we are evolving and we listen to our employees. We know they are the reason for our success and our goal is to attract and retain good pilots. Best wishes and fly safe.
Even with pilots on staff it does not guarantee they are happy. Some may be force to keep there head down as they are under contract other maybe force to stay as there past comes to “haunt” them when applying for jobs. A lot of Part 135 companies ( not just yours) are more forgiving of criminal records and DUI than others.
If I believe you which I’m willing to give you a chance to explain why work rules and QOL issues can’t be merged into your COJ. I’d love to hear why.
Basically if you bail for no other reason than you find greener pastures. Of course they should pay. If promises mutually agreed on are unilaterally changed due to lack of staffing or failure to uphold FAA dispatching guidelines they should walk scotch free. It kind of keeps you and your managment team in-line also.
Last edited by LLWS09R; 03-14-2020 at 11:36 AM.
03-14-2020, 12:21 PM
#184
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by LLWS09R
Nor does your statement make it true either. While not your contract I have viewed and ran over a COJ with a lawyer. While I agree It does protect the company from a turn and burn type rating. It offers ZERO protection for job benefit or work rule changes. Which would be and could be unilaterally imposed by your management. And from my understanding your company is quick to take advantage of this “Loop Hole”. Remember it’s not what the contract says it’s what it does not say is a win for an employer.
Even with pilots on staff it does not guarantee they are happy. Some may be force to keep there head down as they are under contract other maybe force to stay as there past comes to “haunt” them when applying for jobs. A lot of Part 135 companies ( not just yours) are more forgiving of criminal records and DUI than others.
If I believe you which I’m willing to give you a chance to explain why work rules and QOL issues can’t be merged into your COJ. I’d love to hear why.
Basically if you bail for no other reason than you find greener pastures. Of course they should pay. If promises mutually agreed on are unilaterally changed due to lack of staffing or failure to uphold FAA dispatching guidelines they should walk scotch free. It kind of keeps you and your managment team in-line also.
Even with pilots on staff it does not guarantee they are happy. Some may be force to keep there head down as they are under contract other maybe force to stay as there past comes to “haunt” them when applying for jobs. A lot of Part 135 companies ( not just yours) are more forgiving of criminal records and DUI than others.
If I believe you which I’m willing to give you a chance to explain why work rules and QOL issues can’t be merged into your COJ. I’d love to hear why.
Basically if you bail for no other reason than you find greener pastures. Of course they should pay. If promises mutually agreed on are unilaterally changed due to lack of staffing or failure to uphold FAA dispatching guidelines they should walk scotch free. It kind of keeps you and your managment team in-line also.
We strive to attract and retain good pilots. Again, as bad as some might want to think it, we are not trying to screw anyone over. The fact that we have never had to enforce the COJ should shed light on the fact that we work with our pilots and they work with us. We don’t do any of those shady activities. If we are shorted staffed then yes, we may ask pilots to work extra but we don’t force them to. The earlier comments in this post were before there was a guarantee. But it’s still not a 100% guarantee that you will not have to work on a day off. Things happen that are outside of our control. If you are on your last day ON Duty and the plane has a mechanical and there is no airline flights to get you home then... You’re stuck. You will then airline home the next day or fly the plane back when fixed. We give you the option and we pay you for that day. We try to minimize these events but sure it can happen and we are open about it.
Good pilots are hard to find. So our model is certainly not to just lock people into a contract, screw them over for a year and then replace them. Our goal is to hire long Term pilots and if we treat them poorly or do shady things then they will leave. There have been several current pilots post the conditions here but it’s like all you want to point out is some past events at which time was the policy in place. Or maybe there was no policy. I don’t know. Like I said that was before my time. I know what the job is today and I will assure you that it is what we say it is.
03-14-2020, 01:55 PM
#185
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by ChallengerCP
Making a statement doesn’t make it a fact. Do your own research on our Company. The Pay, Schedules, Benefits are all listed on the Profile page. If you are selected for an interview then you will receive a copy of the Company Overview outlining our Company Policies & Procedures.
We do require a Training Contract and a COJ. The Confession of Judgement is a written agreement where you agree to the liability of the training contract. I would suggest reviewing it with an attorney to make sure you understand it completely. Talk to our pilots...we have 54 pilots and I’m sure not all of them are happy but I guarantee you they will all say that we are fair and treat them with respect. We do what we say we are going to do...
Now, there may have been a time (years ago) where there wasn’t policies wrote out and promised like they are today. But that was before my time and the struggles of a smaller operation. Right, wrong, or indifferent these are all things of the past.
I’m not going to address these two guys above because it wouldn’t matter what I said they would try to find some fault about the way we do things. Blanket statements without knowing the specifics is not a very intelligent way to make a point. Is it perfect? No, it’s not. But we are evolving and we listen to our employees. We know they are the reason for our success and our goal is to attract and retain good pilots. Best wishes and fly safe.
We do require a Training Contract and a COJ. The Confession of Judgement is a written agreement where you agree to the liability of the training contract. I would suggest reviewing it with an attorney to make sure you understand it completely. Talk to our pilots...we have 54 pilots and I’m sure not all of them are happy but I guarantee you they will all say that we are fair and treat them with respect. We do what we say we are going to do...
Now, there may have been a time (years ago) where there wasn’t policies wrote out and promised like they are today. But that was before my time and the struggles of a smaller operation. Right, wrong, or indifferent these are all things of the past.
I’m not going to address these two guys above because it wouldn’t matter what I said they would try to find some fault about the way we do things. Blanket statements without knowing the specifics is not a very intelligent way to make a point. Is it perfect? No, it’s not. But we are evolving and we listen to our employees. We know they are the reason for our success and our goal is to attract and retain good pilots. Best wishes and fly safe.
When you catch wind that a pilot may be looking at other opportunities you call them in and tell them to bring in all their company property.. Intimidation much? How sad you are. Who treats employees like that? I mean besides you...
03-14-2020, 02:52 PM
#186
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by ChallengerCP
There is always what if’s. Look at the major airlines right now. They all promised certain things and all of those things could end up being thrown out the window. So I can’t promise something in the future that is unknown. What if there is an economic downturn? The owner might sell the plane. We have never had to let a pilot go due to these type of events but it could happen. Bad things happen and your crazy if you don’t think that they will. So to promise you all these things in a COJ but then say but here is a list of things that may happen to cause a change in our compensation/schedule/benefits package is not realistic.
We strive to attract and retain good pilots. Again, as bad as some might want to think it, we are not trying to screw anyone over. The fact that we have never had to enforce the COJ should shed light on the fact that we work with our pilots and they work with us. We don’t do any of those shady activities. If we are shorted staffed then yes, we may ask pilots to work extra but we don’t force them to. The earlier comments in this post were before there was a guarantee. But it’s still not a 100% guarantee that you will not have to work on a day off. Things happen that are outside of our control. If you are on your last day ON Duty and the plane has a mechanical and there is no airline flights to get you home then... You’re stuck. You will then airline home the next day or fly the plane back when fixed. We give you the option and we pay you for that day. We try to minimize these events but sure it can happen and we are open about it.
Good pilots are hard to find. So our model is certainly not to just lock people into a contract, screw them over for a year and then replace them. Our goal is to hire long Term pilots and if we treat them poorly or do shady things then they will leave. There have been several current pilots post the conditions here but it’s like all you want to point out is some past events at which time was the policy in place. Or maybe there was no policy. I don’t know. Like I said that was before my time. I know what the job is today and I will assure you that it is what we say it is.
We strive to attract and retain good pilots. Again, as bad as some might want to think it, we are not trying to screw anyone over. The fact that we have never had to enforce the COJ should shed light on the fact that we work with our pilots and they work with us. We don’t do any of those shady activities. If we are shorted staffed then yes, we may ask pilots to work extra but we don’t force them to. The earlier comments in this post were before there was a guarantee. But it’s still not a 100% guarantee that you will not have to work on a day off. Things happen that are outside of our control. If you are on your last day ON Duty and the plane has a mechanical and there is no airline flights to get you home then... You’re stuck. You will then airline home the next day or fly the plane back when fixed. We give you the option and we pay you for that day. We try to minimize these events but sure it can happen and we are open about it.
Good pilots are hard to find. So our model is certainly not to just lock people into a contract, screw them over for a year and then replace them. Our goal is to hire long Term pilots and if we treat them poorly or do shady things then they will leave. There have been several current pilots post the conditions here but it’s like all you want to point out is some past events at which time was the policy in place. Or maybe there was no policy. I don’t know. Like I said that was before my time. I know what the job is today and I will assure you that it is what we say it is.
Change your policy as you wish it’s your right as a company. But don’t promise ABC and then as soon as a pilot hits the line say you get DEF. If during a panic mode like what’s happening there should be some buffer room on both sides. Your company has not been in panic mode for years . And if it has that seems more like a you problem than an industry problem.
Every pilot knows the last day mechanical sage and yes if your plane breaks away from base and you don’t get home that night. It’s understandable any pilot will say that. The Mystery here seems to be Pilot XXX is scheduled days off Jun 1-4. May 31st a broker offers Cirrus top dollar for a charter. Multiple pilots have confessed they were involuntary volunteered to work and the reason we are short pilots (Which is a company issue not a pilot issue). But if the D.O. Kindly suggests you fly or your be let go for insubordination a young broke SIC may panic knowing the COJ is one lawyers phone call away. Protection Protection Protection-
If any lawyers could explain to CP that verbal promises mean nothing and black and white contracts mean everything to CP. I will buy them dinner if they are ever in DAL.
A company that stand behind a one sided contract Should send red flags in to the air. However if the contract can be mitigated in writing to offer fair and balance protection for the company and pilot. Is a company that’s worth speaking with.
03-14-2020, 03:28 PM
#187
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by LLWS09R
Listen we are not talking about the majors here. The Corona panic started 2 weeks ago. Your COJ and way you run your buisness started years ago. Let’s not deflect the real problem.
Change your policy as you wish it’s your right as a company. But don’t promise ABC and then as soon as a pilot hits the line say you get DEF. If during a panic mode like what’s happening there should be some buffer room on both sides. Your company has not been in panic mode for years . And if it has that seems more like a you problem than an industry problem.
Every pilot knows the last day mechanical sage and yes if your plane breaks away from base and you don’t get home that night. It’s understandable any pilot will say that. The Mystery here seems to be Pilot XXX is scheduled days off Jun 1-4. May 31st a broker offers Cirrus top dollar for a charter. Multiple pilots have confessed they were involuntary volunteered to work and the reason we are short pilots (Which is a company issue not a pilot issue). But if the D.O. Kindly suggests you fly or your be let go for insubordination a young broke SIC may panic knowing the COJ is one lawyers phone call away. Protection Protection Protection-
If any lawyers could explain to CP that verbal promises mean nothing and black and white contracts mean everything to CP. I will buy them dinner if they are ever in DAL.
A company that stand behind a one sided contract Should send red flags in to the air. However if the contract can be mitigated in writing to offer fair and balance protection for the company and pilot. Is a company that’s worth speaking with.
Change your policy as you wish it’s your right as a company. But don’t promise ABC and then as soon as a pilot hits the line say you get DEF. If during a panic mode like what’s happening there should be some buffer room on both sides. Your company has not been in panic mode for years . And if it has that seems more like a you problem than an industry problem.
Every pilot knows the last day mechanical sage and yes if your plane breaks away from base and you don’t get home that night. It’s understandable any pilot will say that. The Mystery here seems to be Pilot XXX is scheduled days off Jun 1-4. May 31st a broker offers Cirrus top dollar for a charter. Multiple pilots have confessed they were involuntary volunteered to work and the reason we are short pilots (Which is a company issue not a pilot issue). But if the D.O. Kindly suggests you fly or your be let go for insubordination a young broke SIC may panic knowing the COJ is one lawyers phone call away. Protection Protection Protection-
If any lawyers could explain to CP that verbal promises mean nothing and black and white contracts mean everything to CP. I will buy them dinner if they are ever in DAL.
A company that stand behind a one sided contract Should send red flags in to the air. However if the contract can be mitigated in writing to offer fair and balance protection for the company and pilot. Is a company that’s worth speaking with.
If you have a real issue then state it and I will address it. Otherwise, do everyone a favor and just mind your own business. No one has time for your random BS.
Last edited by ChallengerCP; 03-14-2020 at 03:43 PM.
03-14-2020, 03:31 PM
#188
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by Cavok1
You are fair and treat pilots with respect?! Laughable.
When you catch wind that a pilot may be looking at other opportunities you call them in and tell them to bring in all their company property.. Intimidation much? How sad you are. Who treats employees like that? I mean besides you...
When you catch wind that a pilot may be looking at other opportunities you call them in and tell them to bring in all their company property.. Intimidation much? How sad you are. Who treats employees like that? I mean besides you...
03-14-2020, 03:53 PM
#189
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by ChallengerCP
What are you talking about? No pilot has stated that to you and if so it’s false. You don’t know what you are talking about and its obvious that you don’t know anything about our company. Why do you continue to just try and make up lies? The DO has never stated such. You are ridiculous.
If you have a real issue then state it and I will address it. Otherwise, do everyone a favor and just mind your own business. No one has time for your random BS.
If you have a real issue then state it and I will address it. Otherwise, do everyone a favor and just mind your own business. No one has time for your random BS.
Your company illustrates perfectly they feel no need to change the way they do buisness. Whether it be booking hotels for pilots and keeping the points or handing them a one sided contract. Or simply suggesting they have the right or flexibility to change a schedule based on Cirrus needs. No need for a pilots input that’s ridiculous. I’m simply warning pilots to read and reread your contract and to enlighten them there is always two sides to a story. Maybe I am full of it but it appears there have been non LLWS09R pings constantly on this forum illustrating I may not be 100% right but I’m certainly far from being 100% wrong either.
Last edited by LLWS09R; 03-14-2020 at 04:08 PM.
03-14-2020, 04:00 PM
#190
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by ChallengerCP
Again, I think you have the story wrong here. Why don’t you ask your buddy how that really went.
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