I Love PSA
09-11-2013 | 11:43 AM
#2501
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
You are completely missing the point. Your attitude of "I'm not taking a pay cut so it's ok," is incredibly short sighted and demonstrates how much you are missing the big picture. Voting yes might not hurt you today or tomorrow, but I promise in the coming years it will hurt you as you will have helped set the bar lower and placed pressure on every carrier (including mainline) to be competitive with your costs.
If you want to talk about making regionals a stepping stone then you need to look at the economics of the industry.
Regionals exist for one simple fact: they can perform the flying cheaper than mainline. Just like with any kind of outsourcing, the supplier has to be cheaper then the company doing the work themselves, otherwise what is the point?
The best way to promote better paying jobs at mainline carriers is to economically strangle regional carriers out of existence. We can't do that by accepting things like frozen pay scales and increases in medical expenses in exchange for empty promises.
The only way to secure a better profession is to hit management where it hurts them, their wallet. Any and all attempts to "secure flying" with concessions over the past decade by regional MECs have proven to be a failed strategy.
All that has happened is that airline management has taken those concessions and used them to grow regional like a cancer (with the help of chapter 11) because it was economically attractive to do so. Do you think management cares at all about any kind of line we draw in the sand regarding scope? They don't, they see mainline scope as a hinderance and if they had their way they'd be flying every aircraft at regional wages. Of course there would be people like you eager to fly a 737 or A320 at regional rates all while claiming, "I didn't take a pay cut to do this, so its all good." Over the lifetime of your career you'd likely leave a couple million dollars on the table because of your shortsightedness.
The only way to make regionals a stepping stone it to remove the economic incentive so that the flying stays where it belongs: mainline.
That doesn't mean the CRJ-900s will ever be flown at mainline at rates that we might consider respectable. However those aircraft then become the entry level at mainline instead of "making it to the top" at a regional (as we've seen this past decade with regional lifers) for pilots.
Voting yes on this TA will continue the wave of concessions at other regionals first initiated by Pinnacle.
Mark my words, if PSA votes yes to this proposal it will have profound effects on every pilot group. God forbid we have another 9/11 or an energy crisis or another round of bankruptcies where the further relaxation of mainline scope is allowed. If something like on of those events happens and PSA or Pinnacle like cost structures exist everywhere in the industry then management will be falling over themselves to outsource larger and larger mainline aircraft.
If you want to talk about making regionals a stepping stone then you need to look at the economics of the industry.
Regionals exist for one simple fact: they can perform the flying cheaper than mainline. Just like with any kind of outsourcing, the supplier has to be cheaper then the company doing the work themselves, otherwise what is the point?
The best way to promote better paying jobs at mainline carriers is to economically strangle regional carriers out of existence. We can't do that by accepting things like frozen pay scales and increases in medical expenses in exchange for empty promises.
The only way to secure a better profession is to hit management where it hurts them, their wallet. Any and all attempts to "secure flying" with concessions over the past decade by regional MECs have proven to be a failed strategy.
All that has happened is that airline management has taken those concessions and used them to grow regional like a cancer (with the help of chapter 11) because it was economically attractive to do so. Do you think management cares at all about any kind of line we draw in the sand regarding scope? They don't, they see mainline scope as a hinderance and if they had their way they'd be flying every aircraft at regional wages. Of course there would be people like you eager to fly a 737 or A320 at regional rates all while claiming, "I didn't take a pay cut to do this, so its all good." Over the lifetime of your career you'd likely leave a couple million dollars on the table because of your shortsightedness.
The only way to make regionals a stepping stone it to remove the economic incentive so that the flying stays where it belongs: mainline.
That doesn't mean the CRJ-900s will ever be flown at mainline at rates that we might consider respectable. However those aircraft then become the entry level at mainline instead of "making it to the top" at a regional (as we've seen this past decade with regional lifers) for pilots.
Voting yes on this TA will continue the wave of concessions at other regionals first initiated by Pinnacle.
Mark my words, if PSA votes yes to this proposal it will have profound effects on every pilot group. God forbid we have another 9/11 or an energy crisis or another round of bankruptcies where the further relaxation of mainline scope is allowed. If something like on of those events happens and PSA or Pinnacle like cost structures exist everywhere in the industry then management will be falling over themselves to outsource larger and larger mainline aircraft.
And as Purdue was pointing out....regarding scope and another 9/11 event. Remember Gangwal's quote.... after 9/11
“Despite US Airway’s huge losses, President Rakesh Gangwal said he is optimistic about the airline’s future. Specifically, he said the September 11 attacks have allowed the airline to restructure and downsize in ways that would have been impossible otherwise. Specifically, the attacks allow the airline to invoke force majeure clauses in union contracts and eliminate unprofitable routes. Force majeure is the legal term for an uncontrollable event that releases a party from its contractual obligations.”
“Gangwal said he expects the changes to be permanent. ‘I don’t want to take advantage of the situation, but we have to do what is right for the company,’ Gangwal said in a conference call with analysts. ‘And the events of September 11th have opened certain doors for the company that were pretty much closed before.”
09-11-2013 | 01:34 PM
#2503
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: Captain
Funny..... Have you spoken with a PSA NC member to get their take? How they got where they are today? Or are you going by some vigilante Facebook group who has this HIGH hope of something that is totally unrealistic. Their goal is essentially the same as a national seniority list which will never happen......
Further more or are you listening to a dysfunctional AE former MEC Chairman who while he was in office has been accused of spending money illegally and his MEC members putting in false expense reports. The same man and his NC who proposed a B SCALE to the industry? I'm certain there is more on this man but those seem to sum this man who leads the AE pilot group well....
Further more or are you listening to a dysfunctional AE former MEC Chairman who while he was in office has been accused of spending money illegally and his MEC members putting in false expense reports. The same man and his NC who proposed a B SCALE to the industry? I'm certain there is more on this man but those seem to sum this man who leads the AE pilot group well....
I don't know you but it is very clear you don't know what you are talking about here. "Vigilante Facebook group"? It is not unrealistic to expect pilots to educate themselves on the history of their industry. It also isn't unrealistic to expect them to work for better pay, benefits, and work rules when their industry is making money.
The AE MEC has been through plenty in recent history to reveal the negotiating tactics that take place these days. They were fooled by thinking a promise of aircraft would come to fruition if they agreed to the paycuts and possibly PBS under the barrel of a bankruptcy judge. As many warned at the time, this was a bad idea without any defined fleet plan. What would you do if you were fooled once and were watching a replay of it all at another airline? You would scream at the top of your lungs.
Personally, I don't know the MEC chairman and can't say I respect all of his actions. But I can tell you his last letter was a humble one to write. I believe he has done a full 180ş on trusting anyone in management when they tell him that planes will come in exchange for concessions. The hardest part to understand is why ANY company would accept concessions outside of bankruptcy. You have a contract. Fly the equipment they supply you with and do your job.
STW was formed to educate and bring all regional pilots together. Not to create a national seniority list. You can read the site all you want but will find nothing about a national seniority list. The way ALPA has behaved lately though, I can say there are plenty of posters from other airlines screaming for a national list. Not sure that direction would ever pan out anyhow. But for now, the rest of the industry is watching in disbelief as an MEC is willing to put concessions to a vote with management foaming at the mouth to bring the bar even lower in this industry.
09-11-2013 | 03:16 PM
#2506
Underpaid...
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,101
Likes: 0
From: French-Canadian
So it's ok to take concessions while your company is profitable just because you won't be the worst airline out there? Attitude like this is why America is having the issues we have. Free stuff right!!!
09-11-2013 | 03:25 PM
#2508
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 869
Likes: 0
remember when the pinnacle guys said "no, if we vote this in it won't affect the other regionals." Look where we are now... Airways mgmt specifically mentions it here when talking about the PSA deal.
https://www.facebook.com/video/embed...51825060027518
If you PSA guys think this is any different, you'll realize the mistake after you've been forced to take an interview and then frozen in pay
https://www.facebook.com/video/embed...51825060027518
If you PSA guys think this is any different, you'll realize the mistake after you've been forced to take an interview and then frozen in pay
Last edited by spaaks; 09-11-2013 at 03:36 PM.
09-11-2013 | 05:29 PM
#2509
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: Captain
09-11-2013 | 05:58 PM
#2510
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,168
Likes: 0
From: Reclined
It's a tough decision for everyone. I think it'll be a very close vote. So far I know of more no voters than yes. I voted no myself. Everyone has their reason for their votes, we should at least respect that and live with the result of what the majority wants. If you don't like this system, then you should move to Cuba or North Korea.
Your contracts aren't expired and managements are running around trying to squeeze 10 year concessionary cintracts from you.
Why do you think that is? Do you think they know that if they wait; even the most stupid pilot will eventually realize they can name their own game.
Managements are scared
It's high stakes poker, and their bluffing with a losing hand.
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