Cyio

My answer to your question is why not?

I keep harping on the military thing because that is the most heard excuse for not doing this outside of temporary loss of negotiating capital. I have no issue with the military, I have several in my family I am very proud of. I am just tired of that reason because it simply comes down to the disdain some 40 year AA captain would have if one of his buddies from the Air Force has to take a number below a currently employed regional pilot. That’s the problem I have.

Cyio

I get this and take no offense to what you are saying. I know this topic, much like tipping van drivers, brings out the emotions.

I am not saying there wouldn’t be obstacles and I am also not advocating that we would come in at the pay rate form our doh. I just think we would all be stronger as one rather then apart.

If nothing else this a great thought exercise and I like having debates. It makes both myself and others see things from all angles, hopefully making us all better equipped.

LabDad06

But they are different companies, WO vs AA. Great thing once anyone makes it there, military or regional, you start over and are on equal ground. Military pays their dues to get there, regional pays their dues to get there. Now you're both at level 0 and are peers. Why should a regional pilot start on level 5 when they are brand new to the game? And once you're there help out your flying buddies you know and help bring them in.

While I do understand some ill feelings of military jet pilots coming in and taking most of the slots, the same could be said about other regional pilots looking at the WO pilots getting to AA simply by waiting their turn and not from doing anything to stand out. I even had a recruiter at a job fair tell me that it was nothing against me, but I'd probably never make it to AA because of those two reasons. Not a mil jet pilot, and I went to another regional after being offered Envoy because it seemed like the better option at the time. Never gave up though and hopefully I'll be there anyway.

Excargodog

While you are on thought exercises I’d suggest you consider two things:

1. It isn’t the pilot group that determines who to hire, it’s management. And that applies to the statement 2. There are very real practical reasons that management likes military pilots and here are a few of them:
A. They were trained by the US government to a known standard. Good or bad, shoukd they screw up, the company can point right back to the government and deflect blame if needed.
B. Moreover, the government had them for ten to twenty+ years. If they are somehow screwups, the military bears the responsibility for not identifying during that time.
C. They were in at least ten years after UPT and twenty if they retired. During that time they were not in ALPA, APA, or any other union, in fact, it was illegal for them to be in a union in the military. Hence they aren’t generally strongly union oriented. I’m sure you don’t see that as a plus, but management does.
D. Guys who separate when first eligible are going to be at least 32 years old and quite possibly older. Guys who retire are going to be at least 42 and quite possibly older. They will spend a greater part of their flying career on the lower part of the pay scale than anyone younger.
E. Retirees are particularly desirable.
1. They already have guaranteed lifetime income making them less likely to aggressively pursue higher wages. Mean rank at retirement is probably O-5. They are making $60K a year before they even show up.
2. They get lifetime military medical coverage - themselves and their dependents - which makes the cost of the company provided policy just that much cheaper.

Now before anybody gets upset, I’m not saying they don’t bring other things to the table or that this is necessary a plus for the pilot group, I’m just talking management accounting dollars. The fact is, if there were enough ex military fixed wing pilots to fill the available slots, most major managements would be fine with that. They have a built in bias toward getting the most they can for the least salary possible at the lowest risk to the brand, and they see military pilots as having a real advantage in that regard. Plus it makes screening easier, the government has already spent ten to 30 years screening thes guys.

Al Czervik

Respectfully... you don’t know what you don’t know. You’ve beat yourself up at a crappy job to get here. We all did. When you’re over here you won’t want to spend any negotiating capital on anything regional related. Yes, having one list would give us more bargaining power but it would be a long road to recoup from and could vanish at any time. We had a decent looking contract offered a year ago that went poof in the blink of an eye. I’d rather have the WO’s get hired than anyone else but not at an expense to us.

Get a couple of things straight...
-this isn’t personal.
-some of the mentalities here you talk about aren’t wrong but they are going away. This will be a different culture in 10 years
-it bothers me to see guys who truly crap on the WO’s. There needs to be unity amongst AA pilots.
-don’t blame mainline pilots for mgt crapping on you. It’s universal.

Would you give up something for contractual gains for the CFI’s at your pipeline schools before they were pilots on your list?

acecrackshot

This is factually incorrect. They are all wholly owned subsidiaries of the same corporate parent, namely American Airlines Group. The distinctions and relationships between them are legal fictions for the purposes of taxation, employee pay/benefits and responsibilities, etc.

However the one thing all share is their beneficial ownership, namely the stockholders of AAL.

So, in that, it is actually correct to refer to the four WOs of AAG. The rest is window dressing.

Saabs

They are different companies. What you said is factually incorrect.

acecrackshot

I would respectfully suggest that your knowledge of why this is bad on multiple levels is incredibly self-serving. In that, you are little different than the USAir/American pilots who've create this fake "WO vs. Mainline" narrative to somehow make something real that frankly isn't. Its been of tactical and operational advantage to the USAir/American pilot groups, who've in the past used it circumvent seniority, create B scales and do other tremendously profession-damaging but self-serving act. I'd make the case the WO vs. Mainline has been strategically tragic to the greater airline pilot community, perhaps second only to the FFD itself. Its literally wiped out decades of gains made in the early days of unionized pilot. Watching it happen in the last 20+ years has been a case of watching people consistently eat their seed corn.

havick206

It’s all a giant pyramid scheme.

acecrackshot

"Different companies" with the same, as in identical, beneficial owners, via the same ownership, i.e. stock vehicle. Please find me a Piedmont, Envoy, or American Airlines, INC stockholder.

When you do, it will be the same person holding the same proverbial piece of NASDAQ paper saying "American Airlines Group" will it not?

How can anyone describe the four WOs of American Airlines Group as anything other than a "single transportation system" with a straight face. Now, I know USAir/American pilots can because their position depends upon it. But that doesn't make it real.