1500 hour FO mins
09-20-2009, 01:42 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
Originally Posted by Whacker77
Heck, why not make it 5000 hours PIC turbine. Then there would never be another accident.
Numbers are just that, numbers. Arbitrary lines in the sand only ease the worries of those who create them and they often do no easing.
Numbers are just that, numbers. Arbitrary lines in the sand only ease the worries of those who create them and they often do no easing.
When was the last time you looked at the Nall Report? Go read it, then talk to us about numbers being only arbirary.
Really? Supply and demand has nothing to do with cost? Whatever College program you are in doing your CFI time, get your money back.
Originally Posted by Whacker77
The job market will dictate what the hiring minimums will be. Airlines, although poorly run, are businesses out to make money. They are not going to artificially remain contracted and ignore demand. They're going to offer flights to meet the supply. Unless restricted by law, they're going to hire the pilots necessary to do that.
Higher minimums are fine with me, but this utopian belief they will lead to safer flight and higher pay is not realistic.
Higher minimums are fine with me, but this utopian belief they will lead to safer flight and higher pay is not realistic.
09-20-2009, 01:44 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
Originally Posted by BSOuthisplace
Prove to me that a pure lack of experience (less than 1500, 2000, 3000 however many hours) causes aircraft accidents and I'll support the angry mob. Until then my personal opinion is we need to be looking at quality of training. After all this is something that can be backed with examples (Pinnacle, Comair, and Colgan accidents).
09-20-2009, 02:47 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: N/A
Posts: 637
Originally Posted by Mason32
Read the Nall Report. Case Proven, we accept your apology.
09-20-2009, 02:51 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
Originally Posted by BSOuthisplace
Yea the Nall report involves GA accident. I think we can all agree we are talking about 121 here. Nice try though. Still not joining the angry mob.
Apparetly you folks have not read the report. It clearly discusses ratio's of flight hours to accidents... it is not GA specific, nor is it Corporate Specific, nor is it 121 specific... However, that being said, since the last seven of eight accidents have ALL been regionals, it makes my case for me.
Apology still accepted.
09-20-2009, 03:00 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: ATL
Posts: 413
Originally Posted by Mason32
Apparetly you folks have not read the report. It clearly discusses ratio's of flight hours to accidents... it is not GA specific, nor is it Corporate Specific, nor is it 121 specific... However, that being said, since the last seven of eight accidents have ALL been regionals, it makes my case for me.
Apology still accepted.
Apology still accepted.
What about FedEx in Narita and CAL in Denver? That's two right there...
09-20-2009, 03:07 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Flight Instructor
Posts: 623
Originally Posted by Flex81
Make the schools have more stringent requirements. Places like All ATP's, Gulfstream Academy, etc. These places are "pilot factories" and will give you a rating if you are willing to pay for it. Any place that can take you from zero hours to the right seat of an airliner in less than 12 months is not teaching you what you need to know to be safe and competent. The Colgan crash happened because the pilots lacked the basic skills required to fly an aircraft. The captain pulled back without adding power to recover from a stall for crying-out-loud.
09-20-2009, 03:16 PM
#48
Tuk er jerbs!
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: B747 Left
Posts: 1,342
Originally Posted by Mason32
However, that being said, since the last seven of eight accidents have ALL been regionals, it makes my case for me.
A320
ATR-42
Q400 (Buffalo)
B747
CRJ
MD11
MD88
B737
DHC-8
DC-10
B767
EMB135
A320
EMB170
B737
CRJ
DHC-8
B717
Fatals only (last 5 years):
CV-340(580)
Jetstream 32
EMB170
B737
Grumman G73T
B737
CRJ100
B737
DC9
B747
Q400
MD11
09-20-2009, 03:19 PM
#49
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Originally Posted by BoilerWings
IMO, ATP as a minimum to fly 121 is a great idea. (And I only have 1000TT). Not only does it bolster the entry experience level of airline pilots across the board, it also help to re-luster the reputation of this profession.
The problem will be getting those wet ATPers to accept more than 25K a year for the illustrious regional FO job, ATP or not. Especially with a bear economy and thousands of furloughed guys on the street.
And even if the demand for pilots gets so great that the airlines raise pay to attract qualified guys, the kicker will be convincing the American public to pay for it in their tickets.
I love the idea of an ATP as the minimum for the airlines. But if congress and the american people want experience and added safety, they have to pay for it.
The problem will be getting those wet ATPers to accept more than 25K a year for the illustrious regional FO job, ATP or not. Especially with a bear economy and thousands of furloughed guys on the street.
And even if the demand for pilots gets so great that the airlines raise pay to attract qualified guys, the kicker will be convincing the American public to pay for it in their tickets.
I love the idea of an ATP as the minimum for the airlines. But if congress and the american people want experience and added safety, they have to pay for it.
[/QUOTE=BSOuthisplace;681337]Couple questions for the group.
What 135 op flying boxes, pax, lab work, checks etc is actively hiring pilots right now?
What 121 accident has involved a pilot with less than 1500 hours? And if there is one, was his/her lack of hours directly attributed to the cause of the accident?
Prove to me that a pure lack of experience (less than 1500, 2000, 3000 however many hours) causes aircraft accidents and I'll support the angry mob. Until then my personal opinion is we need to be looking at quality of training. After all this is something that can be backed with examples (Pinnacle, Comair, and Colgan accidents).[/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Whacker77
Heck, why not make it 5000 hours PIC turbine. Then there would never be another accident.
Numbers are just that, numbers. Arbitrary lines in the sand only ease the worries of those who create them and they often do no easing.
We had this discussion back in July, but those who think higher minimums will cause higher pay are kidding themselves. There is no relation between the two.
The job market will dictate what the hiring minimums will be. Airlines, although poorly run, are businesses out to make money. They are not going to artificially remain contracted and ignore demand. They're going to offer flights to meet the supply. Unless restricted by law, they're going to hire the pilots necessary to do that.
Higher minimums are fine with me, but this utopian belief they will lead to safer flight and higher pay is not realistic.
Numbers are just that, numbers. Arbitrary lines in the sand only ease the worries of those who create them and they often do no easing.
We had this discussion back in July, but those who think higher minimums will cause higher pay are kidding themselves. There is no relation between the two.
The job market will dictate what the hiring minimums will be. Airlines, although poorly run, are businesses out to make money. They are not going to artificially remain contracted and ignore demand. They're going to offer flights to meet the supply. Unless restricted by law, they're going to hire the pilots necessary to do that.
Higher minimums are fine with me, but this utopian belief they will lead to safer flight and higher pay is not realistic.
So what is the difference between 500 and 1500 hours? The 1500 hour pilot has flown in at least four more seasons, has made a several hundred more go/no-go decisions, and probably had to deal with a few inflight abnormalities.
At 1500 hours minimum, the 121 carriers would be competing with the 135 carriers (and the lower minimums) for pilots. Since 135 starting salaries are a good bit higher than current first year FO pay, 121 companies would need to do something to entice pilots away from a 135 job. During the hiring frenzy, at at least one regional offered signing bonuses to new hires. Eventually, wages would rise.
But would the public pay the extra cost? Well, how much extra are we talking? One dollar per seat per hour would increase salaries for both CA and FO by $18,000 for a 50 pax (assumes 80% load factor and 900 hours of credit). So even a trans-continental round trip ticket would only increase by about $8. These are numbers that are comparable to the TSA fees, and those fees did not impact ticket sales.
There is no way to insure zero crashes, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying. Greater experience would give a pilot a few more tools during an emergency: maybe the tool needed for a safe outcome.
09-20-2009, 03:58 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: none ya...
Posts: 1,154
Originally Posted by FlyJSH
[/QUOTE=BSOuthisplace;681337]Couple questions for the group.
What 135 op flying boxes, pax, lab work, checks etc is actively hiring pilots right now?
What 121 accident has involved a pilot with less than 1500 hours? And if there is one, was his/her lack of hours directly attributed to the cause of the accident?
Prove to me that a pure lack of experience (less than 1500, 2000, 3000 however many hours) causes aircraft accidents and I'll support the angry mob. Until then my personal opinion is we need to be looking at quality of training. After all this is something that can be backed with examples (Pinnacle, Comair, and Colgan accidents).
What 135 op flying boxes, pax, lab work, checks etc is actively hiring pilots right now?
What 121 accident has involved a pilot with less than 1500 hours? And if there is one, was his/her lack of hours directly attributed to the cause of the accident?
Prove to me that a pure lack of experience (less than 1500, 2000, 3000 however many hours) causes aircraft accidents and I'll support the angry mob. Until then my personal opinion is we need to be looking at quality of training. After all this is something that can be backed with examples (Pinnacle, Comair, and Colgan accidents).
It amazes me when I hear someone say there is no difference between someone with 500 hours in a Cessna and 1500 hours in the same plane. IF we assume that is true, then a pilot right off IOE is no different than one who has been on line for a year. I sure hope that isn't true. I would like to think each of us is still learning... I know I am.
So what is the difference between 500 and 1500 hours? The 1500 hour pilot has flown in at least four more seasons, has made a several hundred more go/no-go decisions, and probably had to deal with a few inflight abnormalities.
At 1500 hours minimum, the 121 carriers would be competing with the 135 carriers (and the lower minimums) for pilots. Since 135 starting salaries are a good bit higher than current first year FO pay, 121 companies would need to do something to entice pilots away from a 135 job. During the hiring frenzy, at at least one regional offered signing bonuses to new hires. Eventually, wages would rise.
But would the public pay the extra cost? Well, how much extra are we talking? One dollar per seat per hour would increase salaries for both CA and FO by $18,000 for a 50 pax (assumes 80% load factor and 900 hours of credit). So even a trans-continental round trip ticket would only increase by about $8. These are numbers that are comparable to the TSA fees, and those fees did not impact ticket sales.
[/quote]
I assume you are smart enough to realize that in your scenario, the likely outcome is not higher regional wages, but rather lower 135 pay because everyone will be after those seats to get the hours to move on. Pay for pilots will not increase until ticket prices go back to where they were, and the industry stops outbidding the prices on expedia travelosity and such.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
