Why do you have so much disdain for regional crews?

Yeah, sure do. It's funny, 2 other guys (both military instructors) knew what I was getting at. You were the ONLY one that suffered from reading comprehension failure.

Were they on fire? Were they facing structural failure? Were they facing fuel starvation/exhaustion?

That's funny, did the DAL crew do their duties properly? Did they verify/crosscheck the piece of pavement they were pointed at? Did they back each other up? Do they use CRM at a very critical time like we're all trained to do regardless of major/lcc/regional, etc?

And I ask the same of you. Especially since you display such gross disdain, as well as ignorance towards the "regional" spectrum of this job.

Trying to legitamize/rationalize that because they were major airline pilots and were in such a 'dire" emergency so that makes it OK is "childish and unprofessional" as well.

Open your eyes buddy. It's cool, you don't have to send repeated nasty grams like you did to myself (and others) in the past.

 

Why do folks on this forum continue to insult each other over a difference of opinion? Every time I visit APC I am once again reminded how petty we can be towards our fellow aviator. People make mistakes and nobody out there is perfect no matter how hard you try. These fellows made a bad decision and hopefully they have learned a hard lesson. Learn from it and apply the lesson they have given us to your profession. Stop the insults and name calling and try to, at least, listen to another opinion. Rock on fellow aviators and fly with a calm mind and an open heart.

 

I think this argument/thread drift started with a major guy Nada saying something like the level between major pilot v. regional pilot is astounding and people (he?) need to avoid regionals or something like that. Hence all the other dudes bringing up the non-regional accidents. (To illustrate to Nada that regionals arent the only airlines to "avoid" if he's going to be avoiding airlines that have had accidents.)

 

You mean this one?:
I agree the crew's conduct was a direct factor in the accident. Their behavior cannot be defended. The pilots who fly for legacies, chart outfits and cargo carriers who are expressing this isn't about "major vs. regional pilots" would have more credibility if they'd jump in against statements made by people like Nada Surf and not wait until a regional pilot posts a rebuttal.

BTW, a similar accident with deadly consequences: Northwest Airlines 255.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X31759&key=1

http://www.flight255memorial.com/thecrash.html

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online...s/AAR88-05.pdf CVR transcript begins on PDF page 81 (page 75 of the report)

http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/NWA_Flt_255.htm

 

Agreed on all points and, yes, it looks very familiar.

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online...s/AAR89-04.pdf CVR Transcript PDF page 108 (report page 104)

YouTube - Cockpit Voice Recorder - Delta Airlines Flight 1141 Crash

 

EXPECTATION BIAS: the inherent tendency to see it as it "should be" rather than how it is.

In 2006 NASA conducted a major study that focused on checklist error.
Expectation bias--Calling 20, when they were really at 8--or calling set when they in fact were not was a common event.

In time, the verbal response becomes disconnected from the action.
When I hear "Landing Check" I still can remember "Landing gear down, flaps 45 degrees, set and indicating, flight attendant advised, landing check complete" and I have not been in that plane for 5 years.

This bias is increased under stress, fatigue, workload, or distraction.
In terms of the ability to multi-task, the latest research shows it is "routine but risky."

 

An excellent observation and very appropriate to the thread. Thanks for pointing it out.

Another common one is one pilot goes off freq to call their company and the other pilot (usually the Captain) hears "XXX cleared to cross" when, in fact, that was another aircraft with a similar callsign. It's a common runway incursion issue at certain airports.

Another excellent point. All too often we succumb to unnecessary risks because they are common aka "routine". This is often an acceptable risk when everything is normal, but toss in weather conditions, fatigue and/or other stress factors and it can snowball into either a pilot violation or worse.

 

No comment on the incidents referenced here, but wanted to offer something I use as a mental check when flying, kinda like the GUMP check or fence check from when we all started flying.

When I moved to the left seat of a jet, one of the mental checks I added is as we're pulling onto the runway: "Flaps set? Speeds set?" I look at the flap indication and handle, and make sure speeds are set that look right, just a quick glance to make sure we didn't miss something.

And because the plane I fly now has one of those electro-mechanical door locks, it has become, "Flaps set? Speeds set? Door locked?"

I've never yet had a flap issue, but at my previous airline (where the checklist and takeoff brief procedure wasn't quite as bulletproof) I did take off once with improperly set bugs. And I can also attest that the cockpit door swinging open at thrust set makes quite a startling bang.

Not telling anyone how to fly, just a suggestion in case anyone wants to add it or something similar to their bag of tricks.

 

Smart pilots always heed good advice. I double check myself on key items too. It never hurts to double check.

 

Go and read the facts and then come have an intelligent discussion...... There is a lot more to this story than what you are stating. I am not condoning the crews actions but you need to state the entire facts and not just your opinion.