XJ 9E 9L SLI Thread
03-13-2011 | 07:58 PM
#271
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,648
Likes: 0
Regardless of what property or what "method" anyone feels is justified, all are faced with the same issues when the dust settles:
1. Seat
2. Base
3. Equip
4. QOL
Seniority determines all of that. It's a single "number" that makes a determination of all of the above. You can argue "career expectations", "career progression", "money", and "QOL". Each pilot puts different weights on each factor, but every pilot has these factor in mind.
The argument of "you get to bid in the same spot" is very short sighted. The next vacancy that comes out (post sli) will have every pilot looking at their standing bid with all 4 factors in mind. I may want back to a base, a 9L pilot may want a 9E base where they want to live, a XJ pilot may be looking for a left seat, ....you get the point... In the end your "number" determines all of that. Once again there is no "perfect" solution to this problem and everyone will be upset. That's the only known quantity.
1. Seat
2. Base
3. Equip
4. QOL
Seniority determines all of that. It's a single "number" that makes a determination of all of the above. You can argue "career expectations", "career progression", "money", and "QOL". Each pilot puts different weights on each factor, but every pilot has these factor in mind.
The argument of "you get to bid in the same spot" is very short sighted. The next vacancy that comes out (post sli) will have every pilot looking at their standing bid with all 4 factors in mind. I may want back to a base, a 9L pilot may want a 9E base where they want to live, a XJ pilot may be looking for a left seat, ....you get the point... In the end your "number" determines all of that. Once again there is no "perfect" solution to this problem and everyone will be upset. That's the only known quantity.
03-13-2011 | 08:18 PM
#272
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: SF340 CA
So you give them one chance to upgrade at their current doh and go on the CA list. If they pass it up and they truly want to be a career FO then they'll be at the top of the FO's.
Is it safe to say that the majority of people, if given one choice of what to protect during a SLI, it would be SEAT? I know a lot of guys know they are going to be jr for a while when they upgrade. Their just happy to upgrade and to be done with poverty.
I don't think the two list idea merged into one is that bad of an idea.
I know there are probably at lot of FOs at my company saying "yeah but I go from having 50 guys ahead of me on the upgrade list to maybe 300. But on the new list 300 guys out of a 3000 pilot list is only 10% movement. Upgrading 30-40 month would be less than 8 months. 300 spots to move on a 600 pilot list is "forever" but on a 3000 pilot list its not that bad.
03-13-2011 | 08:46 PM
#273
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
An upgrade and PIC time! As was MY expectation when I started at Pinnacle in 2007. Instead, I'm now approaching 4 years as a FO with no upgrade in sight. Don't even get me started with "career expectation" coming from a Colgan pilot! Had I been at Colgan, I would have a been CA in the top half of the list. Instead, my holding company used our hard-earned money to buy your crappy airline and then buy you Q400s with that money. All the while WE were told our ALPA-contract proposal would have bankrupted our airline. So SHOVE IT! I don't wanna hear it from ANY Colgan guy. You deserve a staple as far as I'm concerned, because our airline saved your sorry-excuse of an airline, and you guys took all the career expectations away from us, when our money was used to buy, grow, and expand you.... at MY expense.
Ok, with emotions out, take the staple out. But DOH is FAIR. It is crediting you for TIME you SPENT at YOUR airline. PERIOD. I am 100% for DOH. And if Colgan wants to beotch and moan about it, lets do DOH with a small fence enough to protect their own Tprop flying and upgrades. That's the fairest thing I can think of.
Ok, with emotions out, take the staple out. But DOH is FAIR. It is crediting you for TIME you SPENT at YOUR airline. PERIOD. I am 100% for DOH. And if Colgan wants to beotch and moan about it, lets do DOH with a small fence enough to protect their own Tprop flying and upgrades. That's the fairest thing I can think of.
03-13-2011 | 09:32 PM
#274
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
An upgrade and PIC time! As was MY expectation when I started at Pinnacle in 2007. Instead, I'm now approaching 4 years as a FO with no upgrade in sight. Don't even get me started with "career expectation" coming from a Colgan pilot! Had I been at Colgan, I would have a been CA in the top half of the list. Instead, my holding company used our hard-earned money to buy your crappy airline and then buy you Q400s with that money. All the while WE were told our ALPA-contract proposal would have bankrupted our airline. So SHOVE IT! I don't wanna hear it from ANY Colgan guy. You deserve a staple as far as I'm concerned, because our airline saved your sorry-excuse of an airline, and you guys took all the career expectations away from us, when our money was used to buy, grow, and expand you.... at MY expense.
Ok, with emotions out, take the staple out. But DOH is FAIR. It is crediting you for TIME you SPENT at YOUR airline. PERIOD. I am 100% for DOH. And if Colgan wants to beotch and moan about it, lets do DOH with a small fence enough to protect their own Tprop flying and upgrades. That's the fairest thing I can think of.
Ok, with emotions out, take the staple out. But DOH is FAIR. It is crediting you for TIME you SPENT at YOUR airline. PERIOD. I am 100% for DOH. And if Colgan wants to beotch and moan about it, lets do DOH with a small fence enough to protect their own Tprop flying and upgrades. That's the fairest thing I can think of.
03-14-2011 | 01:15 AM
#275
Thread Starter
Day puke
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,865
Likes: 0
From: Out.
DOH would be nice, but I doubt it...too many senior guys at 9E would get screwed. From what I've heard so far:
9E CA's want relative
XJ CA's want DOH
9L all want relative
9E FO's DOH
XJ FO's relative
That's why this will go to arbitration. If I were the arbitrator, I would do relative for everyone hired before Janurary 18, 2007 and DOH for everyone after. That would sufficiently **** off everyone on the list, which is the mark of a successful integration.
9E CA's want relative
XJ CA's want DOH
9L all want relative
9E FO's DOH
XJ FO's relative
That's why this will go to arbitration. If I were the arbitrator, I would do relative for everyone hired before Janurary 18, 2007 and DOH for everyone after. That would sufficiently **** off everyone on the list, which is the mark of a successful integration.
Indeed. Ideally, no one should feel very happy with the outcome.
ShyGuy, you should get used to the idea a straight DOH is not going to happen. Right or wrong, it is just very unlikely. In fact, I am willing to bet paychecks it won't happen. Are your game?
03-14-2011 | 05:41 AM
#276
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Likes: 9
From: Bus driver
So you give them one chance to upgrade at their current doh and go on the CA list. If they pass it up and they truly want to be a career FO then they'll be at the top of the FO's.
Is it safe to say that the majority of people, if given one choice of what to protect during a SLI, it would be SEAT? I know a lot of guys know they are going to be jr for a while when they upgrade. Their just happy to upgrade and to be done with poverty.
I don't think the two list idea merged into one is that bad of an idea.
I know there are probably at lot of FOs at my company saying "yeah but I go from having 50 guys ahead of me on the upgrade list to maybe 300. But on the new list 300 guys out of a 3000 pilot list is only 10% movement. Upgrading 30-40 month would be less than 8 months. 300 spots to move on a 600 pilot list is "forever" but on a 3000 pilot list its not that bad.
Is it safe to say that the majority of people, if given one choice of what to protect during a SLI, it would be SEAT? I know a lot of guys know they are going to be jr for a while when they upgrade. Their just happy to upgrade and to be done with poverty.
I don't think the two list idea merged into one is that bad of an idea.
I know there are probably at lot of FOs at my company saying "yeah but I go from having 50 guys ahead of me on the upgrade list to maybe 300. But on the new list 300 guys out of a 3000 pilot list is only 10% movement. Upgrading 30-40 month would be less than 8 months. 300 spots to move on a 600 pilot list is "forever" but on a 3000 pilot list its not that bad.
Your idea won't work. Let the committee(s) do their work, we can't change the outcome anyway.
03-14-2011 | 06:12 AM
#277
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,630
Likes: 0
From: Up Front
So you give them one chance to upgrade at their current doh and go on the CA list. If they pass it up and they truly want to be a career FO then they'll be at the top of the FO's.
Is it safe to say that the majority of people, if given one choice of what to protect during a SLI, it would be SEAT? I know a lot of guys know they are going to be jr for a while when they upgrade. Their just happy to upgrade and to be done with poverty.
I don't think the two list idea merged into one is that bad of an idea.
I know there are probably at lot of FOs at my company saying "yeah but I go from having 50 guys ahead of me on the upgrade list to maybe 300. But on the new list 300 guys out of a 3000 pilot list is only 10% movement. Upgrading 30-40 month would be less than 8 months. 300 spots to move on a 600 pilot list is "forever" but on a 3000 pilot list its not that bad.
Is it safe to say that the majority of people, if given one choice of what to protect during a SLI, it would be SEAT? I know a lot of guys know they are going to be jr for a while when they upgrade. Their just happy to upgrade and to be done with poverty.
I don't think the two list idea merged into one is that bad of an idea.
I know there are probably at lot of FOs at my company saying "yeah but I go from having 50 guys ahead of me on the upgrade list to maybe 300. But on the new list 300 guys out of a 3000 pilot list is only 10% movement. Upgrading 30-40 month would be less than 8 months. 300 spots to move on a 600 pilot list is "forever" but on a 3000 pilot list its not that bad.
03-14-2011 | 06:39 AM
#278
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: SF340 CA
I wouldn't say worst idea ever. it was just an attempt at a compromise. Something different than just DOH that you guys are all stuck on.
It wasn't designed to hurt career FO's either. If a guy wants to or has to be a career FO than how is he at ANY disadvantage by being at the top of an FO list. AS long as no one bids ahead of him there is no difference. He gets to control is own situation.
Whatever though. Its just an idea.
For the record, DOH, IS the worst idea ever!
Let's wait and see how the arbitrator rules. I'd be willing to bet some of you guys will be begging for my "worst idea ever !"
It wasn't designed to hurt career FO's either. If a guy wants to or has to be a career FO than how is he at ANY disadvantage by being at the top of an FO list. AS long as no one bids ahead of him there is no difference. He gets to control is own situation.
Whatever though. Its just an idea.
For the record, DOH, IS the worst idea ever!
Let's wait and see how the arbitrator rules. I'd be willing to bet some of you guys will be begging for my "worst idea ever !"
03-14-2011 | 07:04 AM
#279
You scratched my anchor
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,127
Likes: 87
I wouldn't say worst idea ever. it was just an attempt at a compromise. Something different than just DOH that you guys are all stuck on.
It wasn't designed to hurt career FO's either. If a guy wants to or has to be a career FO than how is he at ANY disadvantage by being at the top of an FO list. AS long as no one bids ahead of him there is no difference. He gets to control is own situation.
Whatever though. Its just an idea.
For the record, DOH, IS the worst idea ever!
Let's wait and see how the arbitrator rules. I'd be willing to bet some of you guys will be begging for my "worst idea ever !"
It wasn't designed to hurt career FO's either. If a guy wants to or has to be a career FO than how is he at ANY disadvantage by being at the top of an FO list. AS long as no one bids ahead of him there is no difference. He gets to control is own situation.
Whatever though. Its just an idea.
For the record, DOH, IS the worst idea ever!
Let's wait and see how the arbitrator rules. I'd be willing to bet some of you guys will be begging for my "worst idea ever !"
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