You know shyguy, I think you're going to have a tough time for as long as you can't understand other people's viewpoint. Why did Mesaba guys get longevity credit and a comair guy or xyz airlines didn't? Because Mesaba guys were owned by Pinnacle and Comair isnt. That makes a certain amount of sense. Instead of arguing against Mesaba furloughs getting it, maybe you should be arguing for any furloughed 121 guy should be getting credit..... Then you wouldn't be trying to make one guys life worse, you'd be trying to make another guys life better. Seems like that might be a better attitude.

As for the other half of why give Mesaba guys longevity, look at it from Pinnacle's eyes... you need to hire, a full course training is 2 months, and here you have 150 guys most of whom are previously CRJ qualified, you can get them thru training in a week of indoc, a couple gfs's and a few sims, easily cutting a month off training. You can have those guys done and on the line, like right now. Looks pretty good if you're management. Only one problem, you have to get them to come. Well, throw them a bone, give them second year pay maybe that'll entice them to come. The more that come the less of a staffing issue Pinnacle had.

Finally, it may seem like a mess now, but I really think they did everyone a favor. Instead of having 150 furloughs and 200 new hires, they have 0 furloughs and 50 new hires, or how ever the numbers work out. The point being, Pinnacle and Colgan were both hiring, you think it's a Charlie Foxtrot now? Imagine if all the furloughs were on the street and we were talking about.. ok so.. we're going to staple the furloughs but the guys who got hired in 2010 are fine. Does that seem more fair? I think bringing the furloughs back to work really solved a lot of long term problems. I'm not super familiar with past precedent, lots of guys like to point out furloughs have been stapled plenty in the past, but have the other airlines involved ever been hiring when the furloughs were stapled? I think our situation is somewhat unique in that regard.

Lastly, why didn't Pinnacle adjust everyone's longevity for pay purposes? Why would they? They could adjust 60 Mesaba guys as a way to entice them to come, if they had to fix all the Pinnacle guys you're talking about giving 1200 guys 2 months increases, it might not matter for one guy, but 1200? The longevity thing is fixed going forward and you got a bonus check, I think that might be as good as it gets....

 

The MOU was a "win-win" for everyone. This seniority issue (XJ furloughs) is more political than anything else. I hope the politics doesn't mess this concept up for the entire industry. We don't know if/when this situation will happen again but it would be good to know it existed "successfully" in the past.

I have flown with a good number of these guys and all of em have been great (both on a professional and personal level).

It a shame we are all ripping each other apart, but we are all fighting over our "lifeblood" in this industry.

 

I agree it's win-win and sets a good example for the industry. Lets hope it catches on, in case our fortunes change. The only part that sucks about it is the position it's put the furloughs in. They're in limbo between Pinnacle and Mesaba and it's no fun to be a political pawn. I for one just want to see the final list and whatever will be, will be.

 

So if this is delayed past the date that the XJ furloughe's are suppose to go back to training and XJ...I think there are 75 or more at 9E right now.

9E is already short staffed, how in the world are they going to staff with all those guys going back to training? Extended the MOU? Somehow?

Another question. Maybe this is why the next few upgrade classes have been postponed?

Questions, questions, questions.

I think its in everyone's best interest to get SLI done ASAP. The Companies survival is at stake.

 

I'll hit the class pushbacks.

1. Fedex hired a bunch of Mem check airman and pro instructors which caused a shortage to train.
2. So short on FO's- can't pull off line plus so short on CA's it's hard to cover pulling off check airman to teach new hires and upgrades.

Lose-lose... Cover flights and be hosed later or be hosed now and caught up later. This sli needs to be done to be able to fully utilize all schoolhouses for the greater good of all.

 

Cool thanks. I heard a bunch of guys left, but my number has said the same...I guess crewtrac hasn't updated yet.

 

Boosted, I'm wondering the same thing. There is some percentage of Pinnacle pilots that want to see the Mesaba furloughs gone because they got some sort of a sweetheart deal. My question is, if the clock runs out and the Mesaba guys go poof, how short staffed will pinnacle be then? It's not in anyone's best interest to see them leave unless you just LIKE being junior manned...

 

We'd be screwed. I just had a flight cancel due to no FO's in MSP. The "junior" guys don't have much to complain about. The most senior XJ furlough is still junior to our most junior guy on 7/1/10 (when we hadn't hired since 08). The ONLY people the furloughs are senior to is new hires from July 2010 to now, which doesn't leave much of an argument for em. It may be harsh to say that, but that's the seniority system.

 

I want our union to advance our own best interests before advancing another airline's. We have our own unfinished battles to fight. Any money spent on increasing the $ for longevity for Mesaba furloughees is one less $ that could be spent trying to match our Pinnacle pilots' longevity from sim date to class date.

They would have come even at first year pay. Either that or unemployment. Or something outside aviation, but most guys wanna keep current. You talk about "throwing them a bone to entice people to come" , yeah, they did that in '07. Offered significant pay raises to 1st/2nd year FO pay. Our own union turned it down to gain leverage, and that plan didn't pan out for a variety of reasons.

Dude, are you smoking crack?! It costs MORE money to give just 80 Mesaba guys a one year longevity step then it does to match ALL Pinnacle pilots longevity back to class date.

Here is the math.

Mesaba cost..................

The cost to adjust one Mesaba pilot's cost from first year to second year?
(rounded hourly rate) $34 - $26 = $8/hr.

For every Mesaba furloughee pilot, Pinnacle has to pay $8/hr more for 2nd year as opposed to first year.

On a 75 hour guarantee, Pinnacle has to pay ONE pilot 75x8 = $600 MORE per month.

One pilot's cost for 1 year? 600x12 = $7,200 cost for one year for one XJ pilot!

Total Mesaba furloughees hired at Pinnacle? I dont know? 60? 100? Lets call it 80 pilots.

7,200 x 80 pilots = $576,000 TOTAL NET COST for 80 XJ furloughee pilots getting 2nd year pay instead of 1st year pay.


Pinnacle costs.................

For the hourly pay increase, per the JCBA, it is 3% step increase every year for the first 3 years of the contract, and then a 2% step increase for the last 2 year duration.

For example, this year, I'm a 4-th year RJ FO. My longevity pay increase would go from $38.70/hr to 39.90/hr (5th year RJ pay) which is a 3% increase. For the average FO, you're talking about a $1.20/hr increase for two months.

For CAs, similar story, a 3% step increase is about a $2/hr increase for two months.

Lets round up, and say every Pinnacle pilot is getting a $2/hr increase for longevity this year (obviously not the case for FOs, but just to entertain you).

$2/hr more x 75 hr guarantee = $150 more per month. $300 for two months.

$300 total cost for longevity fix for one Pinnacle pilot.

It costs, at most, $300 to fix longevity from sim date to hire date for one Pinnacle guy.

times 1200 total pilots. 300x1200 = $360,000. AT MOST TOTAL COST TO FIX LONGEVITY FOR PINNACLE PILOTS


Just $360,000 dollars is ALL it would take to fix EVERY Pinnacle pilot's longevity this year from sim date to hire date. BUT Pinnacle management is spending MUCH more than that, $576,000 dollars for 80 Mesaba pilots to get 2nd year rate as opposed to first year rate.

THERE YOU GO. THAT is the difference. Money that could have been spent to fix OUR quality of life issue has been used to give you XJ furloughees a raise.

You want me to be a team player with a comment like "why would they?!" Because it's the right thing to do now that our DOH is our class date! THAT IS WHY! That is exactly my point. What money they DO have they (along with our unions approval) agreed to give longevity credited to Mesaba guys, while giving us the middle finger for our longevity fix.

NO. It is NOT fixed. The company refused to adjust longevity from where it currently is. They only agreed to adjust seniority for the purposes of SLI and for TravelNet. Our pay, vacation, sick time, everything is still based on our sim date, not class date. Every year, for the rest of my time at Pinnacle, pre-2010 Pinnacle pilots will lose two months worth of longevity-associated pay increases while EVERYONE else gets to benefit with longevity = class date. Everybody else will get their pay increases on their class date, while I (along with every other Pinnacle pilot hired before 2010) will lose approximately 2 months of that longevity increase until our sim date. So, no, it is NOT fixed going forward.

Do not confuse the two. The bonus check simply had to do with time served under the amendable date, from May 1 2005 to Summer 2009. It has nothing to do with longevity adjustment. "As good as it gets...." Yeah, your'e right. Would you like to know the actual retro pay amount the company owes us? We had to 'settle' for 10 million, which is pocket change compared to full retro pay for all pilots.

 

Shyguy- it was a few MILLION to change longevity dates. While that issue is still being pursued, and it was minimal in the overall contract cost, it's still millions. With XJ furloughs- many were -900 and -200 drivers at XJ. They were able to do a short course and be line qualified in under a month vs. 3+ for fresh meat. That is significant savings. Think of it all in a different viewpoint- if you help the entire profession, you inevitably help yourself.