IBT 357 (futile) Strike Vote at RAH
10-26-2011 | 07:01 PM
#61
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Joined: Mar 2011
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The funny thing is, BB had been telling people that the 50 seaters don't make money. They were on their way out of the picture long ago, yet everyone still clings to the notion that they are money makers. Now, thw 190/170's are becoming a drain. I know you have all those "secure" contracts with other companies, but what happens when those expire or are cancelled a la Mesa vs. Delta. It just seems that Shautublic is going to need Frontier a lot more than Frontier needs Shautublic, especially after you strike and other companies cancel your contracts or don't renew them.
10-26-2011 | 07:04 PM
#62
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Joined: Aug 2011
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From: Driving a Bus for Recreational Pleasure.
You know, people try to blame the union but what they fail to realize is the people that run the union are the same people you fly with. If you don't like the service that your dues are paying for then speak up. It gets old hearing all the complaints about the IBT when an election was held and the candidates ran unopposed. The pilot group votes for their reps and apparently since the F9 guys are unhappy then you would think they'd try to get someone elected to council. Little late for that now but no matter what the council negotiates or votes for the final say comes from the pilot group themselves. Wonder what the F9 guys would think if BB decides to pack up DEN and try somewhere else, just like the FFD guys have to deal with? Some may think they have a great QOL but you're not the only ones on the bus! It takes us all, senior and junior pilots, to run this operation and if you're comfortable with the people you work with barely making it by or barely able to support his/her family, on top of being gone from home, while doing something they love when there's the ability to improve all of that then don't ask why we'd vote to try to improve our QOL if that means you losing yours. I know I won't feel bad.
10-26-2011 | 07:17 PM
#63
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 544
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From: Driving a Bus for Recreational Pleasure.
The funny thing is, BB had been telling people that the 50 seaters don't make money. They were on their way out of the picture long ago, yet everyone still clings to the notion that they are money makers. Now, thw 190/170's are becoming a drain. I know you have all those "secure" contracts with other companies, but what happens when those expire or are cancelled a la Mesa vs. Delta. It just seems that Shautublic is going to need Frontier a lot more than Frontier needs Shautublic, especially after you strike and other companies cancel your contracts or don't renew them.
10-26-2011 | 07:25 PM
#64
Che Guevara
Joined: Aug 2005
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Just so I'm clear, are you or are you not a Native RAH pilot? I really don't have the time or inclination to ponder, discuss and/or argue "Industry Philosophy" with someone that doesn't have any skin in the game.
The thing is we Frontier pilots are NOT "fed up." That's a fundamental difference between the IBT and FAPA. We don't want the "CEO to wake up every morning and wonder what we're going to do to them today" [sic] (Tim Beaty, IBT Global Strategies, membership meeting, February 8, 2011).
FAPA has been very successful in working with Management, at Frontier and at RAH, as opposed to fighting them every step of the way. We have a common goal, to see the airline succeed. We will fight when necessary and we have won a very high percentage of the fights we chose to fight, but our foundation is to negotiate a realistic solution to problems.
We don't want ONE contract, we like ours and we don't want to be a single carrier - the FFD is truly "a melting ice cube" - that's why RAH bought Frontier!
The IBT has done nothing since October of 2009 to foster a healthy relationship with the Frontier pilot group. I'm in no way opposed to the individual RAH pilots and I am very willing to support the individual pilots but the IBT has been unprofessional, heavy handed, dismissive and extremely confrontational from the beginning of our relationship. They're friggin' suing us for God's sake! If the IBT is successful in the path they have chosen, Frontier will cease to exist and there are plenty of Native RAH pilots hoping for that.
Where does "and do what's right" fit in this situation?
The IBT has been trying their best for over a year to beat the Frontier pilot group into submission, not for the good of the Frontier pilots they're supposed to represent, but solely to pad their membership numbers. What part of "Stand up and support who is standing with you" does that fall under? The IBT has done NOTHING that could even remotely be construed as standing by ANY Frontier pilot.
I have very good friends that are Native RAH pilots. I would be proud to walk the line with them, they deserve better. It's the IBT I cannot tolerate. They have done nothing to earn my support and are actively attacking my ability to support my family and myself.
I will walk with the Native RAH pilots and my friends when the IBT stops trying to put me out of work, dictate to me what I want and what's best for me and actually attempts to open a dialogue with the Frontier pilots.
So far all I have seen from the IBT is ego and an agenda that has nothing to do with the good of my pilot group or the industry.
The fact that every E-Board position at Local 357 was filled with a candidate that was unopposed (7 positions, 1800+ members) speaks volumes about the level of internal involvement and concern with the future of this company and the course of the IBT going forward.
With Craig Moffatt as President the MEA pilots ought to start feeling represented, perhaps Craig will do something (anything would be an improvement) to start a basis of a relationship with the Frontier pilot group.
I am very hopeful that once the new E-Board takes over on January 1, 2012 and, hopefully, Doug Turner is out of the picture/process that the relationship will improve but I'm not holding my breath.
The thing is we Frontier pilots are NOT "fed up." That's a fundamental difference between the IBT and FAPA. We don't want the "CEO to wake up every morning and wonder what we're going to do to them today" [sic] (Tim Beaty, IBT Global Strategies, membership meeting, February 8, 2011).
FAPA has been very successful in working with Management, at Frontier and at RAH, as opposed to fighting them every step of the way. We have a common goal, to see the airline succeed. We will fight when necessary and we have won a very high percentage of the fights we chose to fight, but our foundation is to negotiate a realistic solution to problems.
We don't want ONE contract, we like ours and we don't want to be a single carrier - the FFD is truly "a melting ice cube" - that's why RAH bought Frontier!
The IBT has done nothing since October of 2009 to foster a healthy relationship with the Frontier pilot group. I'm in no way opposed to the individual RAH pilots and I am very willing to support the individual pilots but the IBT has been unprofessional, heavy handed, dismissive and extremely confrontational from the beginning of our relationship. They're friggin' suing us for God's sake! If the IBT is successful in the path they have chosen, Frontier will cease to exist and there are plenty of Native RAH pilots hoping for that.
Where does "and do what's right" fit in this situation?
The IBT has been trying their best for over a year to beat the Frontier pilot group into submission, not for the good of the Frontier pilots they're supposed to represent, but solely to pad their membership numbers. What part of "Stand up and support who is standing with you" does that fall under? The IBT has done NOTHING that could even remotely be construed as standing by ANY Frontier pilot.
I have very good friends that are Native RAH pilots. I would be proud to walk the line with them, they deserve better. It's the IBT I cannot tolerate. They have done nothing to earn my support and are actively attacking my ability to support my family and myself.
I will walk with the Native RAH pilots and my friends when the IBT stops trying to put me out of work, dictate to me what I want and what's best for me and actually attempts to open a dialogue with the Frontier pilots.
So far all I have seen from the IBT is ego and an agenda that has nothing to do with the good of my pilot group or the industry.
The fact that every E-Board position at Local 357 was filled with a candidate that was unopposed (7 positions, 1800+ members) speaks volumes about the level of internal involvement and concern with the future of this company and the course of the IBT going forward.
With Craig Moffatt as President the MEA pilots ought to start feeling represented, perhaps Craig will do something (anything would be an improvement) to start a basis of a relationship with the Frontier pilot group.
I am very hopeful that once the new E-Board takes over on January 1, 2012 and, hopefully, Doug Turner is out of the picture/process that the relationship will improve but I'm not holding my breath.
10-26-2011 | 07:25 PM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2007
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You know, people try to blame the union but what they fail to realize is the people that run the union are the same people you fly with. If you don't like the service that your dues are paying for then speak up. It gets old hearing all the complaints about the IBT when an election was held and the candidates ran unopposed. The pilot group votes for their reps and apparently since the F9 guys are unhappy then you would think they'd try to get someone elected to council. Little late for that now but no matter what the council negotiates or votes for the final say comes from the pilot group themselves. Wonder what the F9 guys would think if BB decides to pack up DEN and try somewhere else, just like the FFD guys have to deal with? Some may think they have a great QOL but you're not the only ones on the bus! It takes us all, senior and junior pilots, to run this operation and if you're comfortable with the people you work with barely making it by or barely able to support his/her family, on top of being gone from home, while doing something they love when there's the ability to improve all of that then don't ask why we'd vote to try to improve our QOL if that means you losing yours. I know I won't feel bad.
"You know, people try to blame the union but what they fail to realize is the people that run the union are the same people you fly with."
I don't fly with pilots covered under the CHQ CBA.
"It gets old hearing all the complaints about the IBT when an election was held and the candidates ran unopposed."
Did you run?
"Some may think they have a great QOL but you're not the only ones on the bus!"
What?
"It takes us all, senior and junior pilots, to run this operation and if you're comfortable with the people you work with barely making it by or barely able to support his/her family, on top of being gone from home, while doing something they love when there's the ability to improve all of that then don't ask why we'd vote to try to improve our QOL if that means you losing yours. I know I won't feel bad."
No, we could run the airline with only senior people or only junior people, except, wait, if all the junior people were gone than some of the senior people would be junior! That won't do. And if all the senior people were gone than some junior people would all of a sudden be senior! You're right, I guess it takes junior and senior people after all. I forget, what was the point?
I can't vote on the CHQ TA, strike vote or strike with RAH because I'm under a different CBA. I agree that RAH FO's are severely underpaid and all of RAH pilot's deserve a better QOL.
If you're a F9 pilot, I have no response to your post.
Try paragraphs, it's much easier to read......
Last edited by F9 A319; 10-26-2011 at 07:52 PM.
10-26-2011 | 07:39 PM
#66
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Joined: May 2007
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I would settle for them just to acknowledge that there are Frontier pilots and that we have a different area of concerns than the Native RAHers. And they're supposed to represent us. Oh, and they stopped trying to kill my company and put me on the street.
I'm missing your point on the 7 that ran unopposed. I already mentioned that.
Only 13 F9 pilots are members of the IBT and I doubt that any of them made the September 19 (or whatever) deadline to be members in good standing to be able to run or vote.
Frontier pilots are not joining the IBT for reasons I already listed. I put a lot of time into that post to try to fully and honestly enumerate the issues Frontier pilots have with the IBT.
If that post didn't effectively communicate the issues to you than someone else needs to give it a shot.
I've had Sim students that I couldn't communicate with and I've taken over students that their previous instructor couldn't communicate with. It's not that anyone was bad at communicating or not trying, it's just that some people communicate things in a different manner that works.
Hope you find someone that can get the point across in a manner that you can relate to.
Last edited by F9 A319; 10-26-2011 at 08:11 PM.
10-26-2011 | 07:45 PM
#67
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Not make me happy, but make the RAH natives happy, SUPPORT THEM, WALK WITH THEM! Tell mgt, you too are fed up. Do you not see how this is going down? Without sides, there are other airlines, code shares that are willing to support them, as they see it as a benefit to their contract! See the same. Not that this will change your mind, but step back and think about it. What you stand for now, supporting them, you have a lot to gain when it comes time for ONE contract!
For instance, show the solidarity, like UPS did and the pilots supported their truck drivers, not the same union, but supported them and walked with them. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH in this industry. We have seen pay and QOL go down the drain! Stand up and support who is standing with you. You didn't have a choice, neither did RAH natives. MGT did all of this, quit pitting one against one another and do what's right.
For instance, show the solidarity, like UPS did and the pilots supported their truck drivers, not the same union, but supported them and walked with them. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH in this industry. We have seen pay and QOL go down the drain! Stand up and support who is standing with you. You didn't have a choice, neither did RAH natives. MGT did all of this, quit pitting one against one another and do what's right.
Interesting choice of words. I will defer to F9's post about what "is right". He covered it from top to bottom.
UPS is not an apples to apples comparison. The IBT UPS truck drivers went on strike. The IPA UPA pilots did not, they could not legally go on strike. When the brown trucks stopped driving, the boxes stopped moving. When the boxes stopped moving, UPS as an organization stopped moving and the planes were parked. The boxes could not walk themselves to the airport like a passenger. The UPS pilots may have dressed up and walked with the IBT truck drivers, but they definitely did not go on strike with them.
If the RAH IBT pilots go on strike, the Frontier pilots can not legally go on strike (Darn that whole pesky FAPA CBA thing again). The RAH IBT planes may stop moving, but the passengers in DEN, MKE and MCI will still show up at the airport. Frontier, the operation will not stop, and the Frontier pilots will not be able to walk off the job.
With that being said, if I am assigned a flight from MKE to LAN or GRB, I won't fly it. I don't care if there is a plane with 164 people on it, I will not fly a flight that is without a doubt a replacement sequence.
But there in-lies the problem. The CHQ flights out of MKE have all been cancelled. The 190 city pairs are also airbus city pairs.
MCI has more airbus than 190's now.
Denver?
The definition of struck work within the branded operation is going away. It is almost as if the company has thought of this already.
Regardless, the chances of you getting released by the NMB are slim to none. I can't believe we are still talking about a strike. When is someone going to bring up the fact that the garbage won't be picked up and the packages won't get delivered? The IBT promised you a strike, because they can't really offer you anything else. Now the IBT is marching out the "strike vote". The "vote", as this thread is titled, is completely futile and has no real bearing on the real world. It is just like the "unhappy labor" billboards that appear around the airport during contract negotiations. No one except the pilots themselves are aware of their existence, and they serve no real purpose other than improve moral. Apparently, you guys need a huge boost in moral. You just completed your FIRST EVER E-Board nomination, and no one showed up. Seven seats, all unopposed. That level of apathy indicates that your group as a whole is either scared, disinterested, or lacking cognitive ability. Regardless, none of you will ever retain the right to complain for the next three years as you have just handed the keys to your lives away without one vote being cast. The E-Board election will have a much bigger impact on your lives than the futile strike vote.
Less than 1% of NMB mediations end in self-help. You guys are banking on that 1% chance. It screams of naievete.
10-26-2011 | 08:03 PM
#68
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Joined: May 2008
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Third. Designation of representatives
Representatives, for the purposes of this chapter, shall be designated by the respective parties without interference, influence, or coercion by either party over the designation of representatives by . the other; and neither party shall in any way interfere with, influence, or coerce the other in its choice of representatives. Representatives of employees for the purposes of this chapter need not be persons in the employ of the carrier, and no carrier shall, by interference, influence, or coercion seek in any manner to prevent the designation by its employees as their representatives of those who or which are not employees of the carrier.
!
Representatives, for the purposes of this chapter, shall be designated by the respective parties without interference, influence, or coercion by either party over the designation of representatives by . the other; and neither party shall in any way interfere with, influence, or coerce the other in its choice of representatives. Representatives of employees for the purposes of this chapter need not be persons in the employ of the carrier, and no carrier shall, by interference, influence, or coercion seek in any manner to prevent the designation by its employees as their representatives of those who or which are not employees of the carrier.
!
I'm so confused here - who influenced who to vote in what direction and when?
Last edited by FAULTPUSH; 10-26-2011 at 08:43 PM.
10-26-2011 | 08:08 PM
#69
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Joined: May 2007
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Okay, Okay, Okay, here's the really funny part:
Local 357 is going to decide what routes are stuck routes, probably based on marketing data. If a 190 EVER flew a route will it be considered a stuck route?
Wait for it.......
How many of those routes that RAH and F9 fly were MEA routes in the first place?
John Clarke (MEA's Attorney in the SLI) was definitely a railroad RLA dude and made the point of routes being MEA's ad nauseam (probably rightfully so) to no avail during the arbitration.
Now 357 is going to pick which MEA routes were theirs and which MEA routes were F9's?
I can just picture the 385 MEA pilots rolling over in their metaphorical graves like a synchronized swimming team.
Local 357 is going to decide what routes are stuck routes, probably based on marketing data. If a 190 EVER flew a route will it be considered a stuck route?
Wait for it.......
How many of those routes that RAH and F9 fly were MEA routes in the first place?
John Clarke (MEA's Attorney in the SLI) was definitely a railroad RLA dude and made the point of routes being MEA's ad nauseam (probably rightfully so) to no avail during the arbitration.
Now 357 is going to pick which MEA routes were theirs and which MEA routes were F9's?
I can just picture the 385 MEA pilots rolling over in their metaphorical graves like a synchronized swimming team.
10-26-2011 | 10:08 PM
#70
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Joined: Apr 2008
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From: O-2 pilot
Well, that pretty much sums things up. The comments on what is struck work that is. It sums things up on many levels. It makes more sense why Frontier Express flights that are constantly full are being dropped too. By getting rid of them ahead of time it won't be strike work and can be given to Frontier proper, or whoever, during a RAH minus Frontier strike. I don't why I didn't see that coming.
As for the strike vote being "futile", I think that depends on how you look at it. It is futile in the sense that it means nothing in the near term, but it is part of the game and the process that must be followed to eventually get somewhere.
I was a member of ALPA for 7 years and have only been a Teamster at RAH for 8 months. I know about Midwest Express pilots getting screwed and I'm learning more and more about Frontier and FAPA, etc. To me, being fairly new here, I have a hard time understanding all this bad blood between Airbus Frontier and everybody else. I assume I'm just seeing the worst of it being played out on this board. Personally, I think Frontier is a great company. Sure, it's losing money, but a lot of airlines are. I do find it strange that (on this board at least) so many Frontier pilots show such bitterness towards the pilots at RAH whose profits support the Frontier branded operations. Guys who make six figures at Frontier get that money because of guys that make 20K per year at Chautauqua. Perhaps that's a bit simplistic but you get my point.
Also, I don't think the pilots doing the contract work fairly appreciate the branded operation either. I've done what is basically contract work my whole time at other airlines. Sure, your pretty much garaunteed to make profits, but your destiny is not your own. Your company owns no airplanes...nothing. I think their is something to be said for flying under your own flag. The risks are greater, but hopefully the rewards someday will be as well.
As for the strike vote being "futile", I think that depends on how you look at it. It is futile in the sense that it means nothing in the near term, but it is part of the game and the process that must be followed to eventually get somewhere.
I was a member of ALPA for 7 years and have only been a Teamster at RAH for 8 months. I know about Midwest Express pilots getting screwed and I'm learning more and more about Frontier and FAPA, etc. To me, being fairly new here, I have a hard time understanding all this bad blood between Airbus Frontier and everybody else. I assume I'm just seeing the worst of it being played out on this board. Personally, I think Frontier is a great company. Sure, it's losing money, but a lot of airlines are. I do find it strange that (on this board at least) so many Frontier pilots show such bitterness towards the pilots at RAH whose profits support the Frontier branded operations. Guys who make six figures at Frontier get that money because of guys that make 20K per year at Chautauqua. Perhaps that's a bit simplistic but you get my point.
Also, I don't think the pilots doing the contract work fairly appreciate the branded operation either. I've done what is basically contract work my whole time at other airlines. Sure, your pretty much garaunteed to make profits, but your destiny is not your own. Your company owns no airplanes...nothing. I think their is something to be said for flying under your own flag. The risks are greater, but hopefully the rewards someday will be as well.
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