IBT 357 (futile) Strike Vote at RAH
10-26-2011 | 11:05 PM
#71
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Do what is right?
Interesting choice of words. I will defer to F9's post about what "is right". He covered it from top to bottom.
UPS is not an apples to apples comparison. The IBT UPS truck drivers went on strike. The IPA UPA pilots did not, they could not legally go on strike. When the brown trucks stopped driving, the boxes stopped moving. When the boxes stopped moving, UPS as an organization stopped moving and the planes were parked. The boxes could not walk themselves to the airport like a passenger. The UPS pilots may have dressed up and walked with the IBT truck drivers, but they definitely did not go on strike with them.
Interesting choice of words. I will defer to F9's post about what "is right". He covered it from top to bottom.
UPS is not an apples to apples comparison. The IBT UPS truck drivers went on strike. The IPA UPA pilots did not, they could not legally go on strike. When the brown trucks stopped driving, the boxes stopped moving. When the boxes stopped moving, UPS as an organization stopped moving and the planes were parked. The boxes could not walk themselves to the airport like a passenger. The UPS pilots may have dressed up and walked with the IBT truck drivers, but they definitely did not go on strike with them.
10-27-2011 | 04:02 AM
#72
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From: Driving a Bus for Recreational Pleasure.
"It takes us all, senior and junior pilots, to run this operation and if you're comfortable with the people you work with barely making it by or barely able to support his/her family, on top of being gone from home, while doing something they love when there's the ability to improve all of that then don't ask why we'd vote to try to improve our QOL if that means you losing yours. I know I won't feel bad."
No, we could run the airline with only senior people or only junior people, except, wait, if all the junior people were gone than some of the senior people would be junior! That won't do. And if all the senior people were gone than some junior people would all of a sudden be senior! You're right, I guess it takes junior and senior people after all. I forget, what was the point?
No, we could run the airline with only senior people or only junior people, except, wait, if all the junior people were gone than some of the senior people would be junior! That won't do. And if all the senior people were gone than some junior people would all of a sudden be senior! You're right, I guess it takes junior and senior people after all. I forget, what was the point?
Nope, I believe in getting paid for what you fly.
No thanks. I did enough paragraphs in school.
10-27-2011 | 06:41 AM
#73
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From: E-170/175 FO
Just know this. The day we walk, and according to the record voter returns yesterday, it is a very real possibility, the music stops for us all. Don't think for a second that this place can survive one day with us on strike. Management, F9'rs & more importantly the board knows this as well.
10-27-2011 | 07:06 AM
#74
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From: doggy style
Just know this. The day we walk, and according to the record voter returns yesterday, it is a very real possibility, the music stops for us all. Don't think for a second that this place can survive one day with us on strike. Management, F9'rs & more importantly the board knows this as well.
At what point is it enough? If you all strike and the company goes under, so be it. That kind of sacrifice will get you the support of the entire industry. Until then, Republic is just becoming a scum sucking bottom feeder.
10-27-2011 | 07:21 AM
#75
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From: E-170/175 FO
You've been drinking the management kool-aid. 'Bend over and take it or lose your job!'
At what point is it enough? If you all strike and the company goes under, so be it. That kind of sacrifice will get you the support of the entire industry. Until then, Republic is just becoming a scum sucking bottom feeder.
At what point is it enough? If you all strike and the company goes under, so be it. That kind of sacrifice will get you the support of the entire industry. Until then, Republic is just becoming a scum sucking bottom feeder.
10-27-2011 | 07:59 AM
#76
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Well, that pretty much sums things up. The comments on what is struck work that is. It sums things up on many levels. It makes more sense why Frontier Express flights that are constantly full are being dropped too. By getting rid of them ahead of time it won't be strike work and can be given to Frontier proper, or whoever, during a RAH minus Frontier strike. I don't why I didn't see that coming.
As for the strike vote being "futile", I think that depends on how you look at it. It is futile in the sense that it means nothing in the near term, but it is part of the game and the process that must be followed to eventually get somewhere.
I was a member of ALPA for 7 years and have only been a Teamster at RAH for 8 months. I know about Midwest Express pilots getting screwed and I'm learning more and more about Frontier and FAPA, etc. To me, being fairly new here, I have a hard time understanding all this bad blood between Airbus Frontier and everybody else. I assume I'm just seeing the worst of it being played out on this board. Personally, I think Frontier is a great company. Sure, it's losing money, but a lot of airlines are. I do find it strange that (on this board at least) so many Frontier pilots show such bitterness towards the pilots at RAH whose profits support the Frontier branded operations. Guys who make six figures at Frontier get that money because of guys that make 20K per year at Chautauqua. Perhaps that's a bit simplistic but you get my point.
Also, I don't think the pilots doing the contract work fairly appreciate the branded operation either. I've done what is basically contract work my whole time at other airlines. Sure, your pretty much garaunteed to make profits, but your destiny is not your own. Your company owns no airplanes...nothing. I think their is something to be said for flying under your own flag. The risks are greater, but hopefully the rewards someday will be as well.
As for the strike vote being "futile", I think that depends on how you look at it. It is futile in the sense that it means nothing in the near term, but it is part of the game and the process that must be followed to eventually get somewhere.
I was a member of ALPA for 7 years and have only been a Teamster at RAH for 8 months. I know about Midwest Express pilots getting screwed and I'm learning more and more about Frontier and FAPA, etc. To me, being fairly new here, I have a hard time understanding all this bad blood between Airbus Frontier and everybody else. I assume I'm just seeing the worst of it being played out on this board. Personally, I think Frontier is a great company. Sure, it's losing money, but a lot of airlines are. I do find it strange that (on this board at least) so many Frontier pilots show such bitterness towards the pilots at RAH whose profits support the Frontier branded operations. Guys who make six figures at Frontier get that money because of guys that make 20K per year at Chautauqua. Perhaps that's a bit simplistic but you get my point.
Also, I don't think the pilots doing the contract work fairly appreciate the branded operation either. I've done what is basically contract work my whole time at other airlines. Sure, your pretty much garaunteed to make profits, but your destiny is not your own. Your company owns no airplanes...nothing. I think their is something to be said for flying under your own flag. The risks are greater, but hopefully the rewards someday will be as well.
The bad blood comes from the naked seniority grab that the 357 pilots made coupled with forcing F9 pilots into the IBT. The constant reference - always by RAH pilots by the way - to us being protective of bigger equipment demonstrates their envy, not ours. We are protective of the quality of life that we have built at an airline we intended to spend our careers at. We have no say over what equipment we fly, and most don't care.
As a Midwest pilot maybe you see the non sequitur in the middle of the arguments made by the IBT leadership and RAH pilots on this board: "We had nothing to do with destroying Midwest. WE have no choice where we flew or for whom."
But, "WE bought you with money made from the sweat off our backs and therefore WE are entitled to seniority gains at your expense."
Leading to, "YOU have to respect our strike and help us because we forced you to be in our bargaining unit."
Again, this is a moot point and I'm probably wasting electrons writing this. RAH 357 is nowhere near a strike. This vote is a morale builder, nothing more (with 60% of the pilots voting on the first day). F9 will be owned by someone other than Republic Holdings or will be out of business LONG before any of this matters. I'm betting on the former.
10-27-2011 | 08:01 AM
#77
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Ummm, that's not what the original poster stated as his source.
Why is it that there are NO Frontier pilots concerned about FAPAInvest running off with their money? It's only Native RAH IBT pilots worried about that, which, I guess, is understandable as IBT ran off with their money. FAPA Leadership in no way compares to the IBT Leadership when it comes down to theft and deceit, we actually agree with, support and trust our Leadership.
Same thing with LOA 67. Why is it that the IBT is so very concerned about OUR minor concessions when there's not a single Frontier pilot concerned (OK, 58 pilots voted against it, 90% of them are whack jobs)
I don't know anyone that's P***ed about your strike vote. 90% of Frontier pilots aren't even aware of it and the other 10% just think it's funny (futile) or simply don't care.
The FFD isn't feeding Frontier money, they're costing us money. That's why the <50 seaters are going away or will be parked shortly, why the 190 orders are being cancelled and the 190's are up for sale.
Why is it that there are NO Frontier pilots concerned about FAPAInvest running off with their money? It's only Native RAH IBT pilots worried about that, which, I guess, is understandable as IBT ran off with their money. FAPA Leadership in no way compares to the IBT Leadership when it comes down to theft and deceit, we actually agree with, support and trust our Leadership.
Same thing with LOA 67. Why is it that the IBT is so very concerned about OUR minor concessions when there's not a single Frontier pilot concerned (OK, 58 pilots voted against it, 90% of them are whack jobs)
I don't know anyone that's P***ed about your strike vote. 90% of Frontier pilots aren't even aware of it and the other 10% just think it's funny (futile) or simply don't care.
The FFD isn't feeding Frontier money, they're costing us money. That's why the <50 seaters are going away or will be parked shortly, why the 190 orders are being cancelled and the 190's are up for sale.
wait WHAT?!!!!! If all the codeshare flying were to stop tomorrow you would still be getting a paycheck??? What planet do you live on or are you high? Sure you are ****ed about our vote. Why would you have started this thread then? You don't like the burr under your saddle. Concern about your concessions is that there NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN any concessions! The ripple effect is dangerous in this industry... scope erosion anyone??? glad so see that F9 pilots are so self-absorbed and wear blinders... do those bliners have that sweet FAPA logo? You may not be concerned now but control over someone else's $ with no check and balances or required duties is pretty tempting... how many times has it been done in the business world??? Hell, they may not even have to comply with Sarbanes-Oxley laws!!!
10-27-2011 | 08:06 AM
#78
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Joined: Mar 2010
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From: EMB-145 CA
Full Frontier Express flights are being dropped for the same reason that People's Express went T.U. We can't charge enough to cover the cost of operating the small jets on those routes. The struck work definition is an afterthought at best. Zooropa has his own definition of struck work but I don't see where ANY of Frontier's flying, that is performed by an express carrier, could be considered struck work to the mainline since it is the mainline's flying to begin with. Mainline contracts/allows an express carrier to do the work, mainline can hire / fire the express carrier, but if the express carrier goes on strike mainline can't fly those routes? I don't agree.
The bad blood comes from the naked seniority grab that the 357 pilots made coupled with forcing F9 pilots into the IBT. The constant reference - always by RAH pilots by the way - to us being protective of bigger equipment demonstrates their envy, not ours. We are protective of the quality of life that we have built at an airline we intended to spend our careers at. We have no say over what equipment we fly, and most don't care.
As a Midwest pilot maybe you see the non sequitur in the middle of the arguments made by the IBT leadership and RAH pilots on this board: "We had nothing to do with destroying Midwest. WE have no choice where we flew or for whom."
But, "WE bought you with money made from the sweat off our backs and therefore WE are entitled to seniority gains at your expense."
Leading to, "YOU have to respect our strike and help us because we forced you to be in our bargaining unit."
Again, this is a moot point and I'm probably wasting electrons writing this. RAH 357 is nowhere near a strike. This vote is a morale builder, nothing more (with 60% of the pilots voting on the first day). F9 will be owned by someone other than Republic Holdings or will be out of business LONG before any of this matters. I'm betting on the former.
The bad blood comes from the naked seniority grab that the 357 pilots made coupled with forcing F9 pilots into the IBT. The constant reference - always by RAH pilots by the way - to us being protective of bigger equipment demonstrates their envy, not ours. We are protective of the quality of life that we have built at an airline we intended to spend our careers at. We have no say over what equipment we fly, and most don't care.
As a Midwest pilot maybe you see the non sequitur in the middle of the arguments made by the IBT leadership and RAH pilots on this board: "We had nothing to do with destroying Midwest. WE have no choice where we flew or for whom."
But, "WE bought you with money made from the sweat off our backs and therefore WE are entitled to seniority gains at your expense."
Leading to, "YOU have to respect our strike and help us because we forced you to be in our bargaining unit."
Again, this is a moot point and I'm probably wasting electrons writing this. RAH 357 is nowhere near a strike. This vote is a morale builder, nothing more (with 60% of the pilots voting on the first day). F9 will be owned by someone other than Republic Holdings or will be out of business LONG before any of this matters. I'm betting on the former.
we don't want your planes, keep em. Just stop the whoa is me crap already. FAPA tried a seniority grab too. So Did lynx, so did midwest. Ours was actually not a staple like everyone else proposed. As far as the IBT goes, you had a vote. You could have gotten further by trying to unify as soon as the purchases were announced. I wager you would have won in a landslide back then as the IBT was weak at that time. Instead you did the we're better than you just because we've been here longer than most. That's why I hate seniority being the end all be all. The longer you fight the system, the worse it's going to be for you. Losing makes you stronger. Apparently the "kids" continually school you in labor relations and labor law. Might be time to listen to them. Just saying.
10-27-2011 | 08:19 AM
#79
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Full Frontier Express flights are being dropped for the same reason that People's Express went T.U. We can't charge enough to cover the cost of operating the small jets on those routes. The struck work definition is an afterthought at best. Zooropa has his own definition of struck work but I don't see where ANY of Frontier's flying, that is performed by an express carrier, could be considered struck work to the mainline since it is the mainline's flying to begin with. Mainline contracts/allows an express carrier to do the work, mainline can hire / fire the express carrier, but if the express carrier goes on strike mainline can't fly those routes? I don't agree.
The bad blood comes from the naked seniority grab that the 357 pilots made coupled with forcing F9 pilots into the IBT.
Who decided the SLI? Was it the IBT pilots or Eischen?
How were you forced into IBT? Were you allowed to vote? Did you vote? It was still a democratic vote, no? it just didn't go your way.... nor would it have been mathematically possible. but that still isn't being "forced".
The constant reference - always by RAH pilots by the way - to us being protective of bigger equipment demonstrates their envy, not ours.
Not really. You keep talking about your dues already being put in and you earning this and that and generally inferring that you are better than legacy-RAH. that isn't envy. F9 has been driving that wedge.
We are protective of the quality of life that we have built at an airline we intended to spend our careers at. We have no say over what equipment we fly, and most don't care.
Great! So share it just like RAH shares it's cash made by the FFD side of the house! i'm sure lots of folks will stay for their craeers as well.
As a Midwest pilot maybe you see the non sequitur in the middle of the arguments made by the IBT leadership and RAH pilots on this board: "We had nothing to do with destroying Midwest. WE have no choice where we flew or for whom."
True.
But, "WE bought you with money made from the sweat off our backs and therefore WE are entitled to seniority gains at your expense."
Again, who decided the SLI? The SLI award determined what happened...
Leading to, "YOU have to respect our strike and help us because we forced you to be in our bargaining unit."
Again, was there not a vote? Nobody was forced into anything as you allude to.
Again, this is a moot point and I'm probably wasting electrons writing this. RAH 357 is nowhere near a strike. This vote is a morale builder, nothing more (with 60% of the pilots voting on the first day). F9 will be owned by someone other than Republic Holdings or will be out of business LONG before any of this matters. I'm betting on the former.
The bad blood comes from the naked seniority grab that the 357 pilots made coupled with forcing F9 pilots into the IBT.
Who decided the SLI? Was it the IBT pilots or Eischen?
How were you forced into IBT? Were you allowed to vote? Did you vote? It was still a democratic vote, no? it just didn't go your way.... nor would it have been mathematically possible. but that still isn't being "forced".
The constant reference - always by RAH pilots by the way - to us being protective of bigger equipment demonstrates their envy, not ours.
Not really. You keep talking about your dues already being put in and you earning this and that and generally inferring that you are better than legacy-RAH. that isn't envy. F9 has been driving that wedge.
We are protective of the quality of life that we have built at an airline we intended to spend our careers at. We have no say over what equipment we fly, and most don't care.
Great! So share it just like RAH shares it's cash made by the FFD side of the house! i'm sure lots of folks will stay for their craeers as well.
As a Midwest pilot maybe you see the non sequitur in the middle of the arguments made by the IBT leadership and RAH pilots on this board: "We had nothing to do with destroying Midwest. WE have no choice where we flew or for whom."
True.
But, "WE bought you with money made from the sweat off our backs and therefore WE are entitled to seniority gains at your expense."
Again, who decided the SLI? The SLI award determined what happened...
Leading to, "YOU have to respect our strike and help us because we forced you to be in our bargaining unit."
Again, was there not a vote? Nobody was forced into anything as you allude to.
Again, this is a moot point and I'm probably wasting electrons writing this. RAH 357 is nowhere near a strike. This vote is a morale builder, nothing more (with 60% of the pilots voting on the first day). F9 will be owned by someone other than Republic Holdings or will be out of business LONG before any of this matters. I'm betting on the former.
10-27-2011 | 08:20 AM
#80
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The F9 pilot group has been kicked in the teeth by the IBT and the native RAH pilots. Your windfall in the SLI is a career ending proposition for a large percentage of the Frontier pilots. The gains you made were at the expense of current F9 pilots. You are stealing my career (or attempting to - I haven't given up the fight).
You are confused why the F9 pilot group would not want to stand with you?? You just got done kicking them in the nuts! (Ohhhh, but I can clearly see that you deserve a better QOL - here, let me give you my job while I go look for another).
Give me a break!
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