Actually, you have it backwards. If you read what I actually said, I said that pinnacle is better of for being union or would have been worse off if they were non-union. I didn't say anything about Skywest being better if they were union. As you alluded to, it's just an insurance policy. I think that you were just projecting what I thought you said because it would go with your argument.

As for ALPA vs in house, every union is made up of its members. The letters in the name of it doesn't make the corruption or benevolence any different.

 

Everything we have ever had or ever hope to gain comes from you... sending all the credit your way, thanks for all you do. What would we have done if Inc. hadn't aquired yalls, probably have been the worst regional to work for thats for sure. Keep up the good work, we're all counting on yall over there!

 

It made no difference that pinnacle was alpa. They asked the judge for what they wanted and got it. They asked the pilots for what they wanted and the pilots voted it in by 86% and now they are crying like a bunch of babies. How do you think that great contract is gonna look in a couple of years when the final fleet count is 80 900's and there are 450 captain downgrades as FO's and the remainder of the seniority list are gone. Alpa did nothing for pinnacle except take money from pilots. With an FO pay scale that caps out at $37/hour I'm betting 450 captains regret voting for that

 

85% voted yes and if there were 2,700 pilots on property when the vote happened, that's only 370ish no votes.

That's still BS. You are right, the first ask in BK the judge turned down. He worded it as basically you guys need to negotiate more, come up with something, and if you still can't and the company asks me again a second time with these same concessions then I'll have to approve them.

At the end of the day, ALPA made no difference. And remember, the biggest reason 9E ALPA was against this first concessionary contract was because management reset CA rate to year 1 when one upgraded or was downgraded. It bruised their egos so bad, they were willing to toss anything and anyone under the bus to keep their Captain pay as high as possible. A salary cap for Captains from year 18 to 12, yet FOs were screwed down to a 4 year cap! TW's goal is to protect the top of the list, and I've actually heard this from a couple Mesaba guys.

 

Again, the judge rejected what management's first proposal. My only point is that management would have probably gone for more if they were non-union since they wouldn't need a judge's permission to cut their pay and work rules. What is it you guys don't get about that?

 

Because that's not what you're doing. Some of us are a little tired of seeing our flying given away to you guys because you're cheaper. I have no resentment for the SkyWest pilots, I know several of them and they're all good guys. But if you're serious about raising the bar for everyone, a good place to start would be to not erode the flying of a carrier who pays second-year FO's 40 bucks an hour to fly a Dash-8.

I do not root for SkyWest to fail, but the "raising the bar" comment isn't entirely accurate. I don't root for any single regional to fail. It would be nice if they all failed together, simultaneously. Haha.

 

I know the union types like to take this position, but it just isn't valid or possible. Essentially you're saying "Could you imagine what management would do to us if we had a union negotiate a contract, and then that union disbanded over night leaving us to face the consequences?"

Without a union, PCL would not have had that last contract and we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Is that to say the pay/compensation would have been worse? Who knows. Maybe the threat of unionization would be enough to keep the pay/benefits acceptable enough to keep a union off property. Maybe management would go the route of your JO scenario, get super greedy, and force an Eastern Airlines redux.

But "...management would have probably gone for more if they were non-union since they wouldn't need a judge's permission to cut their pay and work rules." is trying to oversimplify it.

 

If 9E was non-union, Colgan would have been used as a whipsaw and probably taken all the flying, which means your ass would have been gone faster than it already was. Maybe that would have qualified as a silver lining to your coworkers.

 

Serious question; how do you propose we (pilots) do that?

 

Thanks for the serious question, instead of getting all over-inflamed like this forum can, especially when bringing up topics like this. Haha.

Serious answer: I don't know. I realize that we have no real power when it comes to the CPA's that our companies negotiate. Perhaps there are ways that we as pilots could make it less convenient. Something like no one bidding the flying, or not picking up any open time to cover the flying.

In reality though, it would simply be nice if there was a bit of an attitude difference. It seems as though in regional world we are all far too overjoyed about "More flying for me! Hooray!" Instead of actually stopping to think about what that means for ourselves, other pilots, and the well-being of the industry in general. If my company bought a bunch of RJ-900's and a started doing a bunch of SEA-LAX and PDX-LAX runs that used to be done by 737's with Alaska pilots, I would feel that as a massive loss, and even more so when I actually had to do the flying. The problem is that we are all too overjoyed to snatch someone else's livelihood if it means another 100 numbers below me on the list.

I don't think SkyWest people actually realize what a massive threat that SKW is to both Horizon and Alaska. AS is trying to phase out any 737 smaller than an 800. So what will become of all of the current 400/700 flying? That's a heck of a lot of mainline jobs, and AS's current TA doesn't address scope.

I know the regional mantra is "get in, get time, get out." But if mainline doesn't hire for a decade like we just saw, no one is getting out. The only path to quick TPIC time is a short upgrade, and that only happens when a company grows extremely quickly, by either finding new flying, or someone else's flying. As regional pilots, we are always looking to the future when it comes to job opportunities and pay. Seeing as how we can't control if there are jobs available in the future, perhaps it's time we started focusing on our opportunity for pay in the present.