The lunacy of airline pay calculation
03-24-2015, 12:18 PM
#41
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Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: RJ right-seat warmer
Posts: 632
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
Are your employees salary or hourly?
If salary, do they work 40 hours a week, or as many hours as necessary to meet the clients' needs? Is there any way for them to earn income beyond their salary (bonus excluded) for working beyond the standard "work week"?
The pay system isn't "better" or "worse", it is just different...and really, its not a difficult concept to wrap your head around.
Put another way: athletes are paid by "game checks", yet they are still expected to train in the off season, show up at training camp, come to practice, and participate in OTAs, etc...
If salary, do they work 40 hours a week, or as many hours as necessary to meet the clients' needs? Is there any way for them to earn income beyond their salary (bonus excluded) for working beyond the standard "work week"?
The pay system isn't "better" or "worse", it is just different...and really, its not a difficult concept to wrap your head around.
Put another way: athletes are paid by "game checks", yet they are still expected to train in the off season, show up at training camp, come to practice, and participate in OTAs, etc...
As for our employees, they are all freelancers (contractors) and are paid hourly, according to whatever hours they work. Before each project we give them an 'hours not to exceed' number. Generally they work 40h/week, but often work less, depending on the project. We generally don't ask them to work more than 40h/ week.
There's no way for them to volunteer to work more hours/week and earn more money; it depends entirely on client needs. In a crunch time, yes, we will ask them if they want to work over 40h/ week. If not, we will bring in other folks to cover the excess.
There is no vacation pay, sick pay, or benefits such as health insurance. But the rates we pay are high enough that our contractors simply purchase their own insurance.
Some projects are as short as a weekend, while the longest one we've done was 11 continuous months. That's not bad pay for the contractors when you're billing 40h/ week for 11 months.
We don't pay a higher rate for OT, but our compensation is generous (between $70-$100/hr depending on skills, experience, and the nature of the project.
Regardless of the rates, though, the pay is simple. We pay for actual hours worked. From the time they show up till the time they go home, not counting lunch.
Which is a lot simpler to figure out, and IMHO makes much more sense than the way the airline industry does it.
03-24-2015, 12:23 PM
#42
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Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: RJ right-seat warmer
Posts: 632
Originally Posted by rickair7777
You're 100% right and usually only the folks who didn't grow up submitting to standard aviation abuse really get this point.
My opinion...
1) Eliminate longevity for pay purposes. Equipment/seat pay would be a fixed figure (subject to COLA raises). This would allow airlines to attract and retain entry-level talent, and remove most of the incentive to destroy a high-longevity airline and replace it with a low-longevity startup.
Longevity would still apply for traditional things like vacation accrual, 401k vesting, etc. so you do get rewarded for sticking around.
Seniority would still of course apply for schedules, vacation bidding, equipment/seat/domicile bidding.
2) A step further...eliminate block pay and replace with duty pay (like any other industry). Duty pay would be lower than current block pay, based on a formula like this...
Assume a five-hour block is minimum desired productivity, and say three legs is average.
Old rate: $100/block hour
New rate: 5 hours x $100 = $500 for the day.
Now we add up the non-flight duty for three reasonably efficient legs:
Report - block out: 45m
2nd Turn: 30m
3nd Turn 30m
Block in- duty off: 15m
Total = 2 hours
Block + non-flight duty = 7 hours. Since we got paid $500 for that reasonably efficient 7 hour duty day, our new duty rate would be $72/duty hour.
Ramifications:
- Company has incentive to schedule efficiently...non-productive duty time is no longer free to the company.
- If company can't schedule efficiently we get paid for our time.
- Super senior folks no longer enjoy windfall combinations of high pay combined with highly efficient trips while junior folks suck up lengthy unpaid sits combined with low pay and multiple legs.
- Seniority still buys many perks...you can bid long duty days to get pay more if you want, and still get weekends holidays off as always.
- We get paid for IROPS.
- Takes some of the sting out of switching airlines, but that shouldn't really be necessary since there would be little incentive to shuffle flying around.
My opinion...
1) Eliminate longevity for pay purposes. Equipment/seat pay would be a fixed figure (subject to COLA raises). This would allow airlines to attract and retain entry-level talent, and remove most of the incentive to destroy a high-longevity airline and replace it with a low-longevity startup.
Longevity would still apply for traditional things like vacation accrual, 401k vesting, etc. so you do get rewarded for sticking around.
Seniority would still of course apply for schedules, vacation bidding, equipment/seat/domicile bidding.
2) A step further...eliminate block pay and replace with duty pay (like any other industry). Duty pay would be lower than current block pay, based on a formula like this...
Assume a five-hour block is minimum desired productivity, and say three legs is average.
Old rate: $100/block hour
New rate: 5 hours x $100 = $500 for the day.
Now we add up the non-flight duty for three reasonably efficient legs:
Report - block out: 45m
2nd Turn: 30m
3nd Turn 30m
Block in- duty off: 15m
Total = 2 hours
Block + non-flight duty = 7 hours. Since we got paid $500 for that reasonably efficient 7 hour duty day, our new duty rate would be $72/duty hour.
Ramifications:
- Company has incentive to schedule efficiently...non-productive duty time is no longer free to the company.
- If company can't schedule efficiently we get paid for our time.
- Super senior folks no longer enjoy windfall combinations of high pay combined with highly efficient trips while junior folks suck up lengthy unpaid sits combined with low pay and multiple legs.
- Seniority still buys many perks...you can bid long duty days to get pay more if you want, and still get weekends holidays off as always.
- We get paid for IROPS.
- Takes some of the sting out of switching airlines, but that shouldn't really be necessary since there would be little incentive to shuffle flying around.
- If company can't schedule efficiently we get paid for our time."
Let's admit it: If the airline industry had never existed, but suddenly sprang into existence today, would we design a pay system from scratch that remotely resembles today's pay system?
Can anyone honestly answer 'yes' to that question? And if so, what are your reasons (besides 'that's the way it's always been done.')
Look, I'm honestly not trying to be a complainer. I am extremely fortunate in that my ability to pay my mortgage is not at all dependent on whatever money I can make from my 121 job. I'm just legitimately trying to understand the logic of how the airline pay system came to be. And yes, I read FTL Volumes 1 and 2. Perhaps I didn't read closely enough.
I was simply hoping for an intelligent discussion, and some of you have provided that. Thank you. But I'm still no closer to truly understanding why the system is the way it is. I shall read FTL again.
03-24-2015, 12:34 PM
#43
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Joined APC: Oct 2013
Position: FO
Posts: 525
Originally Posted by kfahmi
You are indeed correct; I've spent the past 18 years in corporate America. However, salaried jobs are just that -- salaried. There is no pretense of paying an hourly rate. You're paid a certain amount per year, and you certainly don't clock in or out. The airline industry is different in that we are allegedly paid an hourly rate for our time.
And yet it is perfectly acceptable in this industry for one to be paid for 4 hours when one was available to the company for more than three times that number.
I just don't get it. How did we, as pilots, decide that the only time worth being compensated for is the time between door close and door open? It's an honest question. I don't know the answer. I'm just curious as to how the industry came to adopt such practices.
Didn't a group of policemen recently sue and win a class-action suit because they weren't being paid for the first 30 minutes they reported to work (such time was used for changing clothes in the locker room, catching up on daily briefs, etc., before hitting the street.) How are we any different?
And yet it is perfectly acceptable in this industry for one to be paid for 4 hours when one was available to the company for more than three times that number.
I just don't get it. How did we, as pilots, decide that the only time worth being compensated for is the time between door close and door open? It's an honest question. I don't know the answer. I'm just curious as to how the industry came to adopt such practices.
Didn't a group of policemen recently sue and win a class-action suit because they weren't being paid for the first 30 minutes they reported to work (such time was used for changing clothes in the locker room, catching up on daily briefs, etc., before hitting the street.) How are we any different?
That said, (and I know this has been said 1000 times) as long as guys show up for class at 22 bucks an hour and all these wacky pay rules, the airlines have no motivations to pay more. Wasn't it the CEO that Mesa that said, "if I'm filling classes I'm paying too much!" ?
03-24-2015, 12:48 PM
#45
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Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: RJ right-seat warmer
Posts: 632
Originally Posted by HVYMETALDRVR
I don't disagree, but could you imagine how much pilots would complain if we we're paid a base salary whether you flew 35 hours or 90 last month?
Originally Posted by HVYMETALDRVR
That said, (and I know this has been said 1000 times) as long as guys show up for class at 22 bucks an hour and all these wacky pay rules, the airlines have no motivations to pay more. Wasn't it the CEO that Mesa that said, "if I'm filling classes I'm paying too much!" ?
*Admittedly, except for the super-senior guys who can drop trips and then turn around and pick them up at double-time or what have you...
03-24-2015, 02:15 PM
#46
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Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: 7th green
Posts: 4,378
Originally Posted by PilotCrusader
For every single one of these guys, I'll show you a dozen that never got there.
This is the real problem. This industry is a lot of smoke and mirrors; magic acts that never actually produce. It is what keeps suckering people into this thinking that paying your dues early will pay off in the long run, when in actuality, it is a relatively low amount of lottery winners that do.
Welcome to the industry sucker.
This is the real problem. This industry is a lot of smoke and mirrors; magic acts that never actually produce. It is what keeps suckering people into this thinking that paying your dues early will pay off in the long run, when in actuality, it is a relatively low amount of lottery winners that do.
Welcome to the industry sucker.
Amen x 10. It never ceases to amaze me how many people think they're going to get Major airline jobs, no matter how many pilots are being hired. You say Delta is hiring 500 this year? How many apps do they have?
Do the math. Everyone isn't getting that golden ring.
03-24-2015, 02:46 PM
#47
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
Another idea, kahfmi, try a conversation with a railroader. There is more than a passing resemblance between the two systems because the airlines model for Union contracts was....the railroads. It's evolved, but it has its similarities. You can't decry the current system for its admited faults without understanding how it hit this way.
Don't like seniority, speak to guys at railroads or other unionized industries (autos come to mind) where guys are junior at 58.
GF
Don't like seniority, speak to guys at railroads or other unionized industries (autos come to mind) where guys are junior at 58.
GF
03-24-2015, 02:51 PM
#48
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Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Sr. VP of button pushing
Posts: 2,730
Originally Posted by partypilot1
What you will be compensated for and why is usually mandated by the federal gov. I would Google FLSA.
03-24-2015, 03:49 PM
#49
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Joined APC: May 2014
Position: Captain - Retired
Posts: 265
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
Flying the Line Vol 1/2 covers the history of ALPA, from the early days of collective bargaining in a fledgling industry to the upheaval post-Deregulation. Covers lockouts, strikes, scabs, Lorenzo, and every variation in between that influences the decision of pilots and pilot groups to this day.
Hard Landing is a great insight into the viewpoint of airline management and how different tactics (namely Kelleher at Southwest and Crandall at American) were utilized for growth...and how those tactics influenced employee morale.
If you or anyone else can't find "professional development" from reading those historical perspectives of our industry and apply them to the circumstances of the last 20 or so years up to and including today...well, we're bound for another frakkin' Cylon loop because all of this has happened before and will happen again.
Hard Landing is a great insight into the viewpoint of airline management and how different tactics (namely Kelleher at Southwest and Crandall at American) were utilized for growth...and how those tactics influenced employee morale.
If you or anyone else can't find "professional development" from reading those historical perspectives of our industry and apply them to the circumstances of the last 20 or so years up to and including today...well, we're bound for another frakkin' Cylon loop because all of this has happened before and will happen again.
03-24-2015, 03:54 PM
#50
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Joined APC: May 2014
Position: Captain - Retired
Posts: 265
Originally Posted by rickair7777
You're 100% right and usually only the folks who didn't grow up submitting to standard aviation abuse really get this point.
My opinion...
1) Eliminate longevity for pay purposes. Equipment/seat pay would be a fixed figure (subject to COLA raises). This would allow airlines to attract and retain entry-level talent, and remove most of the incentive to destroy a high-longevity airline and replace it with a low-longevity startup.
Longevity would still apply for traditional things like vacation accrual, 401k vesting, etc. so you do get rewarded for sticking around.
Seniority would still of course apply for schedules, vacation bidding, equipment/seat/domicile bidding.
2) A step further...eliminate block pay and replace with duty pay (like any other industry). Duty pay would be lower than current block pay, based on a formula like this...
Assume a five-hour block is minimum desired productivity, and say three legs is average.
Old rate: $100/block hour
New rate: 5 hours x $100 = $500 for the day.
Now we add up the non-flight duty for three reasonably efficient legs:
Report - block out: 45m
2nd Turn: 30m
3nd Turn 30m
Block in- duty off: 15m
Total = 2 hours
Block + non-flight duty = 7 hours. Since we got paid $500 for that reasonably efficient 7 hour duty day, our new duty rate would be $72/duty hour.
Ramifications:
- Company has incentive to schedule efficiently...non-productive duty time is no longer free to the company.
- If company can't schedule efficiently we get paid for our time.
- Super senior folks no longer enjoy windfall combinations of high pay combined with highly efficient trips while junior folks suck up lengthy unpaid sits combined with low pay and multiple legs.
- Seniority still buys many perks...you can bid long duty days to get pay more if you want, and still get weekends holidays off as always.
- We get paid for IROPS.
- Takes some of the sting out of switching airlines, but that shouldn't really be necessary since there would be little incentive to shuffle flying around.
My opinion...
1) Eliminate longevity for pay purposes. Equipment/seat pay would be a fixed figure (subject to COLA raises). This would allow airlines to attract and retain entry-level talent, and remove most of the incentive to destroy a high-longevity airline and replace it with a low-longevity startup.
Longevity would still apply for traditional things like vacation accrual, 401k vesting, etc. so you do get rewarded for sticking around.
Seniority would still of course apply for schedules, vacation bidding, equipment/seat/domicile bidding.
2) A step further...eliminate block pay and replace with duty pay (like any other industry). Duty pay would be lower than current block pay, based on a formula like this...
Assume a five-hour block is minimum desired productivity, and say three legs is average.
Old rate: $100/block hour
New rate: 5 hours x $100 = $500 for the day.
Now we add up the non-flight duty for three reasonably efficient legs:
Report - block out: 45m
2nd Turn: 30m
3nd Turn 30m
Block in- duty off: 15m
Total = 2 hours
Block + non-flight duty = 7 hours. Since we got paid $500 for that reasonably efficient 7 hour duty day, our new duty rate would be $72/duty hour.
Ramifications:
- Company has incentive to schedule efficiently...non-productive duty time is no longer free to the company.
- If company can't schedule efficiently we get paid for our time.
- Super senior folks no longer enjoy windfall combinations of high pay combined with highly efficient trips while junior folks suck up lengthy unpaid sits combined with low pay and multiple legs.
- Seniority still buys many perks...you can bid long duty days to get pay more if you want, and still get weekends holidays off as always.
- We get paid for IROPS.
- Takes some of the sting out of switching airlines, but that shouldn't really be necessary since there would be little incentive to shuffle flying around.
The problem is ALPA will never allow it because they would lose control along with management. This is why pilots need to realize that ALPA has no business sticking it's nose in the regionals anymore and you are all better off without them.
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