Upgrade times in the future?
#51
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,617
Dawg,
Ive been at SWA almost 7 years and here is my take on your questions.
1) It is true that on the F/O side we are currently overstaffed and yes most of the open time has been going out at straight pay. However, if you live in domicile you can sit reserve at home and have a high probability of not being used that much. That is how I have been crediting an average of 155 TFP per month all year long. I think this is a temporary situation on the F/O overstaffing -- Hawaii ops coming online, maybe redeye flying, and I suspect some more domestic city pairs to be announced in 2019 as well maybe some increased near-international destinations. Also, according to my CP they are doing 600 Captain upgrades next year so that should smooth out some of the F/O overmanning, even though we are hiring 550 next year -- with ~150 retirements, increased vacation, and an uptick in sick calls you will see a net gain of Captains and net decrease of F/Os next year.
2) Your statement about the $30 per hour differential between SWA and Legacy is not an apples to apples comparison. Anyone that is just looking at the $ differential needs to sit down and talk with real pilots at each of the airlines. Work rules and rigs trump pay rates every day and SWA has good duty rigs that make the trips productive. Have to look at the whole picture. Each airline has their pros and cons. Here is the required one pilot data point for the APC d$ck measuring contest.
Me -- 7 year pay scale F/O, living in domicile, working smart-not hard, in 2018 my total compensation will be $345,000. (This includes the sum of TFP pay, 14.2% B-fund, estimated 10% profits sharing)
You ask what makes HR feel they are competitive -- well they are having no problem getting people to come to interviews and attrition to other airlines is WAY down from the 2015/2016 time frame.
Also, it has been my experience that every military pilot and civilian RJ pilot apples to multiple major carriers and will generally go with the first major airline that hires them. The number of pilots that end up with near simultaneous job offers from 2 or more majors is a small percentage of the pilot pool. Furthermore, a smart pilot looking at the whole picture will also take into account the financial strength of the company and Southwest is not lacking in that arena -- good thing to consider for the next recession that WILL happen at some point.
3) To each their own but SWA still is a very attractive destination for most pilots -- 11 domiciles to choose from and good trip flexibility working for a company that has never furloughed and has the best financials in the industry plus more growth on the horizon.
4) Bottom line: There is not a single major airline where you won't make great money -- Delta, American, United, Southwest, Alaska, JetBlue, FedEx, UPS. Money should be the least of your worries at any of the above airlines. Life is short -- focus on Quality of Life and you can maximize that by picking a domicile to live in and then living within your means, keep your first wife, surround yourself with a group of good friends and family and enjoy life. Cheers!
Ive been at SWA almost 7 years and here is my take on your questions.
1) It is true that on the F/O side we are currently overstaffed and yes most of the open time has been going out at straight pay. However, if you live in domicile you can sit reserve at home and have a high probability of not being used that much. That is how I have been crediting an average of 155 TFP per month all year long. I think this is a temporary situation on the F/O overstaffing -- Hawaii ops coming online, maybe redeye flying, and I suspect some more domestic city pairs to be announced in 2019 as well maybe some increased near-international destinations. Also, according to my CP they are doing 600 Captain upgrades next year so that should smooth out some of the F/O overmanning, even though we are hiring 550 next year -- with ~150 retirements, increased vacation, and an uptick in sick calls you will see a net gain of Captains and net decrease of F/Os next year.
2) Your statement about the $30 per hour differential between SWA and Legacy is not an apples to apples comparison. Anyone that is just looking at the $ differential needs to sit down and talk with real pilots at each of the airlines. Work rules and rigs trump pay rates every day and SWA has good duty rigs that make the trips productive. Have to look at the whole picture. Each airline has their pros and cons. Here is the required one pilot data point for the APC d$ck measuring contest.
Me -- 7 year pay scale F/O, living in domicile, working smart-not hard, in 2018 my total compensation will be $345,000. (This includes the sum of TFP pay, 14.2% B-fund, estimated 10% profits sharing)
You ask what makes HR feel they are competitive -- well they are having no problem getting people to come to interviews and attrition to other airlines is WAY down from the 2015/2016 time frame.
Also, it has been my experience that every military pilot and civilian RJ pilot apples to multiple major carriers and will generally go with the first major airline that hires them. The number of pilots that end up with near simultaneous job offers from 2 or more majors is a small percentage of the pilot pool. Furthermore, a smart pilot looking at the whole picture will also take into account the financial strength of the company and Southwest is not lacking in that arena -- good thing to consider for the next recession that WILL happen at some point.
3) To each their own but SWA still is a very attractive destination for most pilots -- 11 domiciles to choose from and good trip flexibility working for a company that has never furloughed and has the best financials in the industry plus more growth on the horizon.
4) Bottom line: There is not a single major airline where you won't make great money -- Delta, American, United, Southwest, Alaska, JetBlue, FedEx, UPS. Money should be the least of your worries at any of the above airlines. Life is short -- focus on Quality of Life and you can maximize that by picking a domicile to live in and then living within your means, keep your first wife, surround yourself with a group of good friends and family and enjoy life. Cheers!
#53
Swimmin' in da pool
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 444
Dawg,
Your statement about the $30 per hour differential between SWA and Legacy is not an apples to apples comparison. Anyone that is just looking at the $ differential needs to sit down and talk with real pilots at each of the airlines. Work rules and rigs trump pay rates every day and SWA has good duty rigs that make the trips productive. Have to look at the whole picture. Each airline has their pros and cons.
Your statement about the $30 per hour differential between SWA and Legacy is not an apples to apples comparison. Anyone that is just looking at the $ differential needs to sit down and talk with real pilots at each of the airlines. Work rules and rigs trump pay rates every day and SWA has good duty rigs that make the trips productive. Have to look at the whole picture. Each airline has their pros and cons.
Good stuff.
#57
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,617
I think the last year's W2 thread was a big eye-opener and a great source of information for many people. How often do you run into threads here or other forums asking the same old tired question of "how much can I realistically make the first year/second year/as a captain/as a senior FO/as a widebody FO/reserve..." etc?
Every pilot group out there has its overachievers, the lazies, the chronically fatigued, the forever disgruntled, etc. It's nice to see information from various sources and angles, and threads like that deliver answers to:
- anyone looking in wondering if they can make it the first year, whether it's worth it, or what financial sacrifices they may have to make to make it through the first x-years starting over. This applies to any level.
- current pilots wondering just how good or bad they have it and whether the grass is greener elsewhere, and getting a realistic compensation range.
For all you people who think that throwing out W-2's is measuring junk, what are your thoughts on Glassdoor? NBAA Salary Surveys? Pro Pilot Surveys? IBM/Stanton/Gallagher surveys? Is that measuring junk too?
Seeing W-2 information when compared to running numbers on APC calculators and seeing days worked/nights away from home actually highlights the importance of the combination of rates/work rules/rigs, etc.
Why do you guys consider sharing that kind of information to be "measuring junk"? I'd call it being educated, but that's just me.
Every pilot group out there has its overachievers, the lazies, the chronically fatigued, the forever disgruntled, etc. It's nice to see information from various sources and angles, and threads like that deliver answers to:
- anyone looking in wondering if they can make it the first year, whether it's worth it, or what financial sacrifices they may have to make to make it through the first x-years starting over. This applies to any level.
- current pilots wondering just how good or bad they have it and whether the grass is greener elsewhere, and getting a realistic compensation range.
For all you people who think that throwing out W-2's is measuring junk, what are your thoughts on Glassdoor? NBAA Salary Surveys? Pro Pilot Surveys? IBM/Stanton/Gallagher surveys? Is that measuring junk too?
Seeing W-2 information when compared to running numbers on APC calculators and seeing days worked/nights away from home actually highlights the importance of the combination of rates/work rules/rigs, etc.
Why do you guys consider sharing that kind of information to be "measuring junk"? I'd call it being educated, but that's just me.
#59
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,617
How about explaining the value of profit sharing in the overall scheme of things? A line pilot just may be told... "Look at your proposed hourly rates... what are you complaining about?? Vote YES!" Don't you think it helps pattern bargaining for a Joe Q. Lineswine voter to have some end-result data from elsewhere?
No published contract comparison publication that I've seen breaks this down into that kind of a detail. The end results from individual pilots do.
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