Concession discussions in our future?
04-23-2020, 06:01 AM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,022
Originally Posted by PowerShift
RJ! You are thinking like an airline exec! If I were in the big chair, I would not want to furlough anyone. The idea is to outlast your competitor. If AA, DAL and UAL furlough, we have an opportunity to hold our markets, expand current markets, and fill in the gaps of abandoned markets. SWA has the financial ability to outlast the others, but not forever. Operating an airline on borrowed money is risky (UAL AA) but SWA may do it to pounce on abandoned markets.
This is all dependent on loads coming back. If our planes are still empty after the 4th of July, plan on furloughs this fall.
I would support half pay for everyone (half the flying as well) keep everyone on property, current and ready to ramp back up quickly. That’s good for the company, keeps money in everyone’s pocket, and keeps everyone employed. I don’t see that as a “concession” we just become part time employees. Same pay scale, same work rules, same contract.
“Same pay till the last day” is a nice thought, but not very practical. It would just prolong furloughs and hamstring flexibility for the company to throttle the operation. The more agile the company can be, the quicker we will recover/expand.
If SWA plays their hand just right, I think we will come out ahead.
This is all dependent on loads coming back. If our planes are still empty after the 4th of July, plan on furloughs this fall.
I would support half pay for everyone (half the flying as well) keep everyone on property, current and ready to ramp back up quickly. That’s good for the company, keeps money in everyone’s pocket, and keeps everyone employed. I don’t see that as a “concession” we just become part time employees. Same pay scale, same work rules, same contract.
“Same pay till the last day” is a nice thought, but not very practical. It would just prolong furloughs and hamstring flexibility for the company to throttle the operation. The more agile the company can be, the quicker we will recover/expand.
If SWA plays their hand just right, I think we will come out ahead.
I could maybe see this if there were a poison pill that said something to the effect of if SWA furloughs or goes BK there's an immediate snapback to MMG. Even if we don't go the furlough/BK route then there should be a sunset/renewal every couple months to readjust based on conditions at that time.
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04-23-2020, 06:21 AM
#112
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,616
Fear porn sells these days. Personally, I'm not really into it and I don't put much stake in it. The mainstream media has literally been reduced to fear porn peddling and tabloid-like reporting, so I don't pay much attention to it. Kinda like this furlough talk and reading these wannabe airline executives rationalizing how many the company will furlough....
Zap nails it with these two sentences: "They don't have a cost problem, they have a revenue problem. Cutting to zero won't solve that." E X A C T L Y ! ! !
I see the company offering early retirements, and those who have money in Top Hat should seriously consider an early retirement. I also see company offering long-term LOA's, but I just don't see furloughs. Again, who squawked the loudest at Southwest Airlines over the staffing... Management, Scheduling or OT *****s?
If you lay off 3,000 pilots... you're looking at a 3 year recall process simply due to capacity. Would anyone be willing to take the risk going that far out? Is that even reasonable? Personally, I don't think so. Our product is a household name. If we want to keep a foothold in the market and get into new ones because someone folded or vacated it, it's our metal on it with SWAPA pilots flying it. People keep disregarding this, but this is a true gem in our contract. By comparison, look at Alaska... thanks to going to arbitration over their contract, Alaska management could theoretically furlough the entire Alaska Airlines seniority list and maintain their brand by outsourcing all the flying to SkyWest and Horizon.
Just not seeing it here... especially as the pressure to reopen the economy keeps growing.
Zap nails it with these two sentences: "They don't have a cost problem, they have a revenue problem. Cutting to zero won't solve that." E X A C T L Y ! ! !
I see the company offering early retirements, and those who have money in Top Hat should seriously consider an early retirement. I also see company offering long-term LOA's, but I just don't see furloughs. Again, who squawked the loudest at Southwest Airlines over the staffing... Management, Scheduling or OT *****s?
If you lay off 3,000 pilots... you're looking at a 3 year recall process simply due to capacity. Would anyone be willing to take the risk going that far out? Is that even reasonable? Personally, I don't think so. Our product is a household name. If we want to keep a foothold in the market and get into new ones because someone folded or vacated it, it's our metal on it with SWAPA pilots flying it. People keep disregarding this, but this is a true gem in our contract. By comparison, look at Alaska... thanks to going to arbitration over their contract, Alaska management could theoretically furlough the entire Alaska Airlines seniority list and maintain their brand by outsourcing all the flying to SkyWest and Horizon.
Just not seeing it here... especially as the pressure to reopen the economy keeps growing.
04-23-2020, 08:32 AM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,022
Originally Posted by RJSAviator76
Fear porn sells these days. Personally, I'm not really into it and I don't put much stake in it. The mainstream media has literally been reduced to fear porn peddling and tabloid-like reporting, so I don't pay much attention to it. Kinda like this furlough talk and reading these wannabe airline executives rationalizing how many the company will furlough....
Zap nails it with these two sentences: "They don't have a cost problem, they have a revenue problem. Cutting to zero won't solve that." E X A C T L Y ! ! !
I see the company offering early retirements, and those who have money in Top Hat should seriously consider an early retirement. I also see company offering long-term LOA's, but I just don't see furloughs. Again, who squawked the loudest at Southwest Airlines over the staffing... Management, Scheduling or OT *****s?
If you lay off 3,000 pilots... you're looking at a 3 year recall process simply due to capacity. Would anyone be willing to take the risk going that far out? Is that even reasonable? Personally, I don't think so. Our product is a household name. If we want to keep a foothold in the market and get into new ones because someone folded or vacated it, it's our metal on it with SWAPA pilots flying it. People keep disregarding this, but this is a true gem in our contract. By comparison, look at Alaska... thanks to going to arbitration over their contract, Alaska management could theoretically furlough the entire Alaska Airlines seniority list and maintain their brand by outsourcing all the flying to SkyWest and Horizon.
Just not seeing it here... especially as the pressure to reopen the economy keeps growing.
Zap nails it with these two sentences: "They don't have a cost problem, they have a revenue problem. Cutting to zero won't solve that." E X A C T L Y ! ! !
I see the company offering early retirements, and those who have money in Top Hat should seriously consider an early retirement. I also see company offering long-term LOA's, but I just don't see furloughs. Again, who squawked the loudest at Southwest Airlines over the staffing... Management, Scheduling or OT *****s?
If you lay off 3,000 pilots... you're looking at a 3 year recall process simply due to capacity. Would anyone be willing to take the risk going that far out? Is that even reasonable? Personally, I don't think so. Our product is a household name. If we want to keep a foothold in the market and get into new ones because someone folded or vacated it, it's our metal on it with SWAPA pilots flying it. People keep disregarding this, but this is a true gem in our contract. By comparison, look at Alaska... thanks to going to arbitration over their contract, Alaska management could theoretically furlough the entire Alaska Airlines seniority list and maintain their brand by outsourcing all the flying to SkyWest and Horizon.
Just not seeing it here... especially as the pressure to reopen the economy keeps growing.
To your point about fear porn:
Part 1 of 4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7LqaotiGWjQ
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04-23-2020, 11:56 AM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by 4V14T0R
I could maybe see this if there were a poison pill that said something to the effect of if SWA furloughs or goes BK there's an immediate snapback to MMG. Even if we don't go the furlough/BK route then there should be a sunset/renewal every couple months to readjust based on conditions at that time.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A great book that should be mandatory reading for any airline pilot is “Hard Landing” by Tom Petzinger.
04-23-2020, 12:39 PM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,022
Originally Posted by PowerShift
Yes, the monthly guarantee is would would be waived. Keep everyone on the property, and keep them flying, albeit 1-2 trips a month. That keeps everyone current, and ready to go. If the company wants to increase flight in the short term, there is Open time etc.
A great book that should be mandatory reading for any airline pilot is “Hard Landing” by Tom Petzinger.
A great book that should be mandatory reading for any airline pilot is “Hard Landing” by Tom Petzinger.
Well if you're gonna reference that book you gotta read flying the line Vol 1&2 as well.
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04-23-2020, 01:02 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 1,256
Originally Posted by 4V14T0R
Well if you're gonna reference that book you gotta read flying the line Vol 1&2 as well.
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Last edited by senecacaptain; 08-13-2020 at 05:31 AM.
04-23-2020, 01:18 PM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,615
Originally Posted by PowerShift
Yes, the monthly guarantee is would would be waived. Keep everyone on the property, and keep them flying, albeit 1-2 trips a month. That keeps everyone current, and ready to go. If the company wants to increase flight in the short term, there is Open time etc.
A great book that should be mandatory reading for any airline pilot is “Hard Landing” by Tom Petzinger.
A great book that should be mandatory reading for any airline pilot is “Hard Landing” by Tom Petzinger.
04-23-2020, 02:23 PM
#119
At your mom's house
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: cpt 737
Posts: 2,664
After all the VPs take a huge pay cut. All office employees held to the same deal and all officers get zero pay till everyone is made whole.
maybe we talk about ourselves because it's what we can control but there are a lot more ways to save money. Pilots pay is not the reason we are profitable or not
maybe we talk about ourselves because it's what we can control but there are a lot more ways to save money. Pilots pay is not the reason we are profitable or not
04-23-2020, 02:28 PM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Position: The right seat
Posts: 257
Originally Posted by RJSAviator76
Fear porn sells these days. Personally, I'm not really into it and I don't put much stake in it. The mainstream media has literally been reduced to fear porn peddling and tabloid-like reporting, so I don't pay much attention to it. Kinda like this furlough talk and reading these wannabe airline executives rationalizing how many the company will furlough....
Zap nails it with these two sentences: "They don't have a cost problem, they have a revenue problem. Cutting to zero won't solve that." E X A C T L Y ! ! !
I see the company offering early retirements, and those who have money in Top Hat should seriously consider an early retirement. I also see company offering long-term LOA's, but I just don't see furloughs. Again, who squawked the loudest at Southwest Airlines over the staffing... Management, Scheduling or OT *****s?
If you lay off 3,000 pilots... you're looking at a 3 year recall process simply due to capacity. Would anyone be willing to take the risk going that far out? Is that even reasonable? Personally, I don't think so. Our product is a household name. If we want to keep a foothold in the market and get into new ones because someone folded or vacated it, it's our metal on it with SWAPA pilots flying it. People keep disregarding this, but this is a true gem in our contract. By comparison, look at Alaska... thanks to going to arbitration over their contract, Alaska management could theoretically furlough the entire Alaska Airlines seniority list and maintain their brand by outsourcing all the flying to SkyWest and Horizon.
Just not seeing it here... especially as the pressure to reopen the economy keeps growing.
Zap nails it with these two sentences: "They don't have a cost problem, they have a revenue problem. Cutting to zero won't solve that." E X A C T L Y ! ! !
I see the company offering early retirements, and those who have money in Top Hat should seriously consider an early retirement. I also see company offering long-term LOA's, but I just don't see furloughs. Again, who squawked the loudest at Southwest Airlines over the staffing... Management, Scheduling or OT *****s?
If you lay off 3,000 pilots... you're looking at a 3 year recall process simply due to capacity. Would anyone be willing to take the risk going that far out? Is that even reasonable? Personally, I don't think so. Our product is a household name. If we want to keep a foothold in the market and get into new ones because someone folded or vacated it, it's our metal on it with SWAPA pilots flying it. People keep disregarding this, but this is a true gem in our contract. By comparison, look at Alaska... thanks to going to arbitration over their contract, Alaska management could theoretically furlough the entire Alaska Airlines seniority list and maintain their brand by outsourcing all the flying to SkyWest and Horizon.
Just not seeing it here... especially as the pressure to reopen the economy keeps growing.
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