90-Day Strike Warning
12-01-2023 | 07:08 AM
#121
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,629
Likes: 145
12-01-2023 | 07:16 AM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,553
Likes: 396
according to the podcast "30" LCO is there to get the company to stop rerouting.
I personally think LCO , if it does stop the company, will cost me 10tfp/month I historically get gia reroutes.
if the company cannot stop the reroutes then as a whole it will pay more but not as lucrative for individuals.
Meaning we'll all make some money off of reroutes v some making a lot via move up etc.
This will be a critical education piece.
I personally think LCO , if it does stop the company, will cost me 10tfp/month I historically get gia reroutes.
if the company cannot stop the reroutes then as a whole it will pay more but not as lucrative for individuals.
Meaning we'll all make some money off of reroutes v some making a lot via move up etc.
This will be a critical education piece.
12-01-2023 | 07:25 AM
#123
Furloughed Again?!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,948
Likes: 109
From: Boeing 737
Because that’s how pattern bargaining works. You see what your peers have and try and exceed that in every section.
You may think you’re worth $500/tfp but economics disagrees. If I’m the highest paid 737 pilot in the world, my career earnings will still be less than a UAL pilot. We can have 20% NEC and be paid $500/tfp on the top end and you’ll still be earning less. You can’t compete with street captain at a legacy here. If a recession hits and they furlough and we don’t….maybe it evens out. Given the 1221 notices, anything can happen at any airline.
If the meat and potatoes is really good, I’m not gonna throw the plate in the trash because the gravy boat isn’t overflowing. I wanted better than 737 rates and everything else has to be industry standard or better. The big 3 didn’t get raises counting for inflation….we will because we were behind and it will be industry leading. Maybe next contract cycle everyone does away with pay by type and moves to a UPS model….
You may think you’re worth $500/tfp but economics disagrees. If I’m the highest paid 737 pilot in the world, my career earnings will still be less than a UAL pilot. We can have 20% NEC and be paid $500/tfp on the top end and you’ll still be earning less. You can’t compete with street captain at a legacy here. If a recession hits and they furlough and we don’t….maybe it evens out. Given the 1221 notices, anything can happen at any airline.
If the meat and potatoes is really good, I’m not gonna throw the plate in the trash because the gravy boat isn’t overflowing. I wanted better than 737 rates and everything else has to be industry standard or better. The big 3 didn’t get raises counting for inflation….we will because we were behind and it will be industry leading. Maybe next contract cycle everyone does away with pay by type and moves to a UPS model….
12-01-2023 | 07:28 AM
#124
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
And if you could define what constitutes industry leading, that would be fantastic. If you go by the rates, yes, they are industry-leading because they beat every other 737 rate in the country by like 2% or so and that's all we fly. That falls short a tad. NEC rate? Don't know it yet. Disability? I see the rumor, don't know the details but shows promise to be industry leading. That leaves work rules... according to SWAPA podcast, the legacies soft money and LCO type stuff there was actually SWAPA SRC product that they incorporated. Go figure.... but how will our company use it? Reserve rules? I'll be on reserve for quite a while.... the changes better knock my socks off.
So what does "industry-leading" mean?
So what does "industry-leading" mean?
12-01-2023 | 07:31 AM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,655
Likes: 300
according to the podcast "30" LCO is there to get the company to stop rerouting.
I personally think LCO , if it does stop the company, will cost me 10tfp/month I historically get gia reroutes.
if the company cannot stop the reroutes then as a whole it will pay more but not as lucrative for individuals.
Meaning we'll all make some money off of reroutes v some making a lot via move up etc.
This will be a critical education piece.
I personally think LCO , if it does stop the company, will cost me 10tfp/month I historically get gia reroutes.
if the company cannot stop the reroutes then as a whole it will pay more but not as lucrative for individuals.
Meaning we'll all make some money off of reroutes v some making a lot via move up etc.
This will be a critical education piece.
12-01-2023 | 07:43 AM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,655
Likes: 300
career compensation not 737 rates. All that from the union about career compensation and how we are the most productive in the world and we settle for barely more than 737 rates. Now assuming these are the numbers, give me a break. This will not sway anyone to come here v the other 3 when they can make millions more. And to be honest that's what we need, pilots to come here v others or else there will no longer be a here. And NH pretty much look at the $$
It’s near impossible to determine career earnings since this industry is so cyclical. You can go best case scenario for upgrade by type but that’s not a fits all sizes number because some people will bypass upgrade, refuse WB, work guarantee vs hustle for QOL reasons. I’m not even sure ALPA knows what the avg career earnings are….in my 23 yrs we’ve had 9/11, Ch. 11’s, Age-65, Covid, etc….none of which can be predicted ahead of time. We can agree to 777 pay and it mean nothing if we keep losing $1b every meltdown.
12-01-2023 | 07:49 AM
#127
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 769
Likes: 77
For all of you newer captains, remember this is all you get soon. No more step raises. And you will be riding reserve and then weekend line flying for a long, long time. The union comms said CAREER compensation, not highest 737 rate by 32 cents or whatever. If the number is 320, that's not even close. It's literally MILLIONS behind.
I came here when we were the highest paid. Then the legacies came back minimally from their crappy bankruptcy contracts and rose above us again. This recent cycle they didn't even get an inflationary increase. We shouldn't be ok with just barely edging out their narrow body rates. While flying 50%+ more than them. This is the only time in the rest of most of our collective careers that we will have the ability to demand more. This profession has fallen for decades. Now is the time to get ours.
Also, if you're a PMer, you'll lose money in the changeover to LCO vs move up pay.
I came here when we were the highest paid. Then the legacies came back minimally from their crappy bankruptcy contracts and rose above us again. This recent cycle they didn't even get an inflationary increase. We shouldn't be ok with just barely edging out their narrow body rates. While flying 50%+ more than them. This is the only time in the rest of most of our collective careers that we will have the ability to demand more. This profession has fallen for decades. Now is the time to get ours.
Also, if you're a PMer, you'll lose money in the changeover to LCO vs move up pay.
Last edited by MudhammedCJ; 12-01-2023 at 08:00 AM.
12-01-2023 | 07:53 AM
#128
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
You can be the highest hourly paid pilot and still make less in career compensation because we don’t have upgrades offered to people walking in the door. We would have to have upgrade time drop a lot and get 777 pay right out the gate to be close and that’s just not going to happen….thats like FA’s wanting pilot pay to pour a can of water. If we close the gap significantly, that’ll do a lot to get people to think twice about jumping for a quick buck.
It’s near impossible to determine career earnings since this industry is so cyclical. You can go best case scenario for upgrade by type but that’s not a fits all sizes number because some people will bypass upgrade, refuse WB, work guarantee vs hustle for QOL reasons. I’m not even sure ALPA knows what the avg career earnings are….in my 23 yrs we’ve had 9/11, Ch. 11’s, Age-65, Covid, etc….none of which can be predicted ahead of time. We can agree to 777 pay and it mean nothing if we keep losing $1b every meltdown.
It’s near impossible to determine career earnings since this industry is so cyclical. You can go best case scenario for upgrade by type but that’s not a fits all sizes number because some people will bypass upgrade, refuse WB, work guarantee vs hustle for QOL reasons. I’m not even sure ALPA knows what the avg career earnings are….in my 23 yrs we’ve had 9/11, Ch. 11’s, Age-65, Covid, etc….none of which can be predicted ahead of time. We can agree to 777 pay and it mean nothing if we keep losing $1b every meltdown.
12-01-2023 | 07:56 AM
#129
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,258
Likes: 240
From: B737CA
according to the podcast "30" LCO is there to get the company to stop rerouting.
I personally think LCO , if it does stop the company, will cost me 10tfp/month I historically get gia reroutes.
if the company cannot stop the reroutes then as a whole it will pay more but not as lucrative for individuals.
Meaning we'll all make some money off of reroutes v some making a lot via move up etc.
This will be a critical education piece.
I personally think LCO , if it does stop the company, will cost me 10tfp/month I historically get gia reroutes.
if the company cannot stop the reroutes then as a whole it will pay more but not as lucrative for individuals.
Meaning we'll all make some money off of reroutes v some making a lot via move up etc.
This will be a critical education piece.
^^^ This is my concern as well. Pay rates stood to seal it for me, but if they're indeed "in the 320 range" then they failed to do so.
From what I gather and I'll wait until the final language, but disability and co-terminals are a plus for me. The rest of the stuff just doesn't seem to impress me. I hate to say it, but I'm leaning towards no.
12-01-2023 | 08:00 AM
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,553
Likes: 396
For all of you with shiny new captain wings, remember this is all you get soon. No more step raises. And you will be riding reserve and then weekend line flying for a long, long time. The union comms said CAREER compensation, not highest 737 rate by 32 cents or whatever. If the number is 320, that's not even close. It's literally MILLIONS behind.
I came here when we were the highest paid. Then the legacies came back minimally from their crappy bankruptcy contracts and rose above us again. This recent cycle they didn't even get an inflationary increase and some of you are ok with just barely edging out their narrow body rates? While flying 50%+ more than them? This is the only time in the rest of most of your collective careers that you will have the ability to demand more. This profession has fallen for decades. Now is the time to get ours.
Also, if you're a PMer, you'll lose money in the changeover to LCO vs move up pay.
I came here when we were the highest paid. Then the legacies came back minimally from their crappy bankruptcy contracts and rose above us again. This recent cycle they didn't even get an inflationary increase and some of you are ok with just barely edging out their narrow body rates? While flying 50%+ more than them? This is the only time in the rest of most of your collective careers that you will have the ability to demand more. This profession has fallen for decades. Now is the time to get ours.
Also, if you're a PMer, you'll lose money in the changeover to LCO vs move up pay.
What we can change is the sad state of our current abusive relationship with SWA and how they pay us what they pay us. I expect that to be airtight as it can be and industry leading in all regards. If it isn't...
LCO can be a goldmine for PM flyers simply because many changes on PM trips get absorbed by rigs. I just want to see it in practice (a simulation of how it would have paid over a year, let's say) prior to passing final judgment. AM flyers currently get screwed by lack of move up. PM flyers currently get screwed by schedule extensions and long days. I am a big fan of move up. Hate to see it go. This had better be good.
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