Interim? Until 2012? Is that how you define interim or is it that the actual defined section 6 negotiations have not taken place? I guess if this is your definition of interim, then the Jurassic period was a mere blink of the eye. Each of these "interim" agreements move the real section 6 process further and further down the road. As far as danger, there is danger in any unknown. The SLI is an unknown. What RA and his gang will do with all these "synergies" we are providing are an unknown too. "Danger Will Robinson"! Am I afraid of any of this? Not really, because I simply cannot do anything about it other than voice an opinion that "my" union doesn't particularly care all that much about. (I'm referring to national issues primarily). Where do you come up with this 18 month timeline for feeling the effects of a NO vote? What is your timeline for feeling the effects of a YES vote? As far as DC contributions, I see THAT as 2 years... "220, 221, whatever it takes"

 

Just what "mistake" was corrected? YOUR mistake of hanging onto a DB retirement while giving up work rules, and pay and....? Or is it viewed the JCBA corrects the "mistake" of LOA 19 and the FACT that your MEC decided not to join in while the time was truly right? So the way I am seeing this is that IF the DAL pilots vote this down, the NWA pilots will view us as the guys in the black hats.... again. (no pun intended) OR , more likely you now see LOA 19 for what it was, a DELTA contract modification that your MEC had nothing to do with, and it lifted you up to what we are now voting on. So I guess it's all about you then. Newsflash, it's NOT all about you. The problems that most guys I talk to have with this agreement have NOTHING to do with NWA. I'll say that again in case you don't understand it... it has NOTHING to do with NWA. Most guys I hear that are voting no on this agreement do not like many things about it.. terms... the length of time before DC contributions kick in... there are more. And FYI, I am probably voting yes simply because I don't really see any advantage in voting no, but I understand the no side of the equation.

 

And how many hundreds of millions of dollars were lost due to NALPA's irrationality by failing to act on the original, pre-merger JPWA/SLI deal in February? A damn sight more than we stand to lose if this JPWA is voted down.

I agree with T-Square. Opposition to this JPWA has nothing to do with the substantial increases NWA guys are getting. The terms of the JPWA just don't merit approval.

 

Spiff,

This is speculation on your part..... As for speculation on my part I believe we will loose as much if not more than what was left on the table in Feb. DAL management could come back saying that due to the increased cost being incured because of a lack of an agreement less is now available for the pilot group. Fuel is on the rise again, others are furloughing, and the industry is in the dumps.

 

I see the company not being able to do too much before SOC. Once that happens they will use each and every loop hole that they can find in LOA 19. The term "bringing us to our knees comes to mind." Yes, there are protections in the LOA, but there are also a lot of things that have been left up to interpretation.
That, said, you and I agree on the most basic point. There is nothing that will be gained by voting NO. It sends a message, but one that I am sure our buddy from Ford and Harrison already has a work around for. This added with the years of spite between us and our soon to be co-workers makes it an easy Yes vote. Good will with them in the near term will pay off dividends many times over in the long term.
I understand your point about this JPWA being about what is best for the DAL pilots and that is where we should focus with making our vote. I just see more gains by working together from day one. We all see how a two front battle is working out for our country, how do you think it will go for us fighting the NWA pilots, management, and ALPA national. I think we will have way to many issues to deal with at once. We need to pick our fights and pick them wisely. Sometimes it is better to wait to start the battle on our terms, even though we are emotionally ready to do it now.

 

Why don't we hear any pro's or CON's on the NWA vote. It seems nothing from that side of this vote but everyone has a reason to tell the DAL guys whick way to vote

 

I don't think that if this thing gets voted down, there will be a SOC. I could be wrong here. And you are correct about the company using every loophole they can find, but the fact remains that LOA19 would be in force, and the no voters seem to think they can live with that. So really it comes down to what you percieve as more gains. (personally I am on the fence as I don't really see much in the way of gains in this agreement, but I do acknowledge that it might be better to get this abortion behind us and move on) I agree with your comment about picking our battles. We'll discuss goodwill and who has it after the SLI is crammed down our collective throats, because one of the groups is not gonna be happy. Good luck finding goodwill at that point.

To paraphrase Superpilot.. we will be "locked into a box" with the ratification of this contract. Contrary to what some believe, I do not think there will be any substantial mid contract improvements... substantial being the operative word. We'll get a bone or two here and there, but nothing meaningful. We will be locked into this thing for a long long time. That is the NO vote perspective. Kumbaya is the YES perspective. I see and understand both arguments. I do feel that the YES voters are using a fear of the unknown to bolster their argument. I believe the unknown is prevalent on both sides. The problem is that voting no does nothing to rectify that problem. Neither does voting yes. Pilots by nature abhor the unknown. Tell me what's wrong with my aircraft...

 

"Yes" might make NWA pilots "gruntled" for a few weeks.

Then the SLI will be released, and it won't be straight DOH...and they'll go back to being their usual disgruntled selves.

I'd rather have more money and more time off than a happy pilot group...especially when the price of keeping those angry pilots happy is so steep.

 

Heyas Bograt,

It's because the perception is that DAL guys don't read the contract past section 2 (compensation) and it's as if you guys measure the size of your John Thomas by the amount on your W-2.

Over on the NWA side, it's more about QoL and other non-pay rate issues. Sick pay, DC contribution, insurance, max duty day, minimum rest, reserve days, premium pay, instructors/training, call-in-honest/jumpseat, etc.

We've tried to point out some of these things, but all any of the DAL guys want to do is look at the W2 and shout "windfall! windfall!", when it is, in fact, close to a push.

Since there was no constructive dialog going on, we decided to wash our laundry in private. But don't blame us if you hang dirty skivvies on the line outside, and we point to it.

In reality, I'd MUCH rather have the NWA PWA with raises/tweaks than the DAL contract with the JPWA. That option was not presented to me (yet), so I will vote on the option that WAS presented to me, which was a good alternate.

Nu

 

I'm sure the company would be more than happy to take back your very substantial pay increases in return for very minor QOL issues.

My bare ass it's about "QOL and not pay" at NWA. How do you account for your bickering, green book, and absolute irrationality, for starters? I'm pretty sure isn't about a better sick leave policy.

Last time I checked, I couldn't pay for my kid's braces with a "call in honest" policy. Maybe it's different in Detroit. Although I guess since you have your pension in tact, money is only a secondary concern.