ALPA loses last ditch effort
05-09-2012 | 05:01 AM
#71
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From: What day is it?
Welcome back! Wondering why you were so silent lately. Guess Bruce has been too busy screwing up the TWA discussions to write your copy.
See where some of your guys filed a DFR over your SLI integration with SWA. Sure hope that this time the Herndon guys did a better job of destroying the hard drives and wiping the email files than they did with TWA. Or maybe they didn't.
How's the drive to convince SWAPA pilots that they don't have a "real" union and should join ALPA?
See where some of your guys filed a DFR over your SLI integration with SWA. Sure hope that this time the Herndon guys did a better job of destroying the hard drives and wiping the email files than they did with TWA. Or maybe they didn't.
How's the drive to convince SWAPA pilots that they don't have a "real" union and should join ALPA?
05-09-2012 | 06:47 AM
#72
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It is likely that DOL would have provided that pay increase without a contract. IBT got an awesome boost in dues revenue, however.
I would not be so quick to classify what happened at OAI as a victory for the pilots. I rather think if you polled them on their feelings about IBT and 1224 you would hesitate to publish the poll results.
If you are looking to promote IBT, probably the less said the better about their representation at OAI. That whole deal has a bad smell around it.
I would not be so quick to classify what happened at OAI as a victory for the pilots. I rather think if you polled them on their feelings about IBT and 1224 you would hesitate to publish the poll results.
If you are looking to promote IBT, probably the less said the better about their representation at OAI. That whole deal has a bad smell around it.
05-09-2012 | 07:42 AM
#73
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See where some of your guys filed a DFR over your SLI integration with SWA. Sure hope that this time the Herndon guys did a better job of destroying the hard drives and wiping the email files than they did with TWA. Or maybe they didn't.
How's the drive to convince SWAPA pilots that they don't have a "real" union and should join ALPA?
How's the drive to convince SWAPA pilots that they don't have a "real" union and should join ALPA?
In house unions are easier to manage than a national union. But it's also easier for nefarious characters to totally infiltrate an in house union. Either of those don't really compare to the IBT.
Defending the IBT is really gutsy considering their track record over the last 10-20 years. They've been kicked off of a lot properties for just cause. Too bad you don't feel the need to look back that far. Smart comments aren't going convince us to ignore their checkered past.
In short, there's a lot of warts to go around. Often it's inappropriate credit the success or blame failure on the union. The personality of the pilot group very often comes into play. Not to mention the quality of the business model or management team.
Last edited by Gunter; 05-09-2012 at 07:56 AM.
05-09-2012 | 09:11 AM
#74
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Unfortunately, I think your wisdom is in the minority. Like our government, it is what we decide to make it. But we have to be a player, not viewing (and complaining) from the sideline.
05-09-2012 | 03:20 PM
#75
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 424
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From: B767 FO
i don't care how much experience you have working on this stuff, you've clearly lost it. We all get you're very po'd at alpa. Really.
In house unions are easier to manage than a national union. But it's also easier for nefarious characters to totally infiltrate an in house union. Either of those don't really compare to the ibt.
Defending the ibt is really gutsy considering their track record over the last 10-20 years. They've been kicked off of a lot properties for just cause. Too bad you don't feel the need to look back that far. Smart comments aren't going convince us to ignore their checkered past.
In short, there's a lot of warts to go around. Often it's inappropriate credit the success or blame failure on the union. The personality of the pilot group very often comes into play. Not to mention the quality of the business model or management team.
In house unions are easier to manage than a national union. But it's also easier for nefarious characters to totally infiltrate an in house union. Either of those don't really compare to the ibt.
Defending the ibt is really gutsy considering their track record over the last 10-20 years. They've been kicked off of a lot properties for just cause. Too bad you don't feel the need to look back that far. Smart comments aren't going convince us to ignore their checkered past.
In short, there's a lot of warts to go around. Often it's inappropriate credit the success or blame failure on the union. The personality of the pilot group very often comes into play. Not to mention the quality of the business model or management team.
05-09-2012 | 03:51 PM
#76
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Joined: Nov 2005
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From: Recovering Airline Pilot
As for Bruce, the Director of Representation has nothing to do with handling litigation. That's what the Legal Department is for. Yet more proof that despite your claims to the contrary, you really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to ALPA.
05-09-2012 | 05:19 PM
#77
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From: What day is it?
I don't care how much experience you have working on this stuff, you've clearly lost it. We all get you're very PO'd at ALPA. Really.
In house unions are easier to manage than a national union. But it's also easier for nefarious characters to totally infiltrate an in house union. Either of those don't really compare to the IBT.
Defending the IBT is really gutsy considering their track record over the last 10-20 years. They've been kicked off of a lot properties for just cause. Too bad you don't feel the need to look back that far. Smart comments aren't going convince us to ignore their checkered past.
In short, there's a lot of warts to go around. Often it's inappropriate credit the success or blame failure on the union. The personality of the pilot group very often comes into play. Not to mention the quality of the business model or management team.
In house unions are easier to manage than a national union. But it's also easier for nefarious characters to totally infiltrate an in house union. Either of those don't really compare to the IBT.
Defending the IBT is really gutsy considering their track record over the last 10-20 years. They've been kicked off of a lot properties for just cause. Too bad you don't feel the need to look back that far. Smart comments aren't going convince us to ignore their checkered past.
In short, there's a lot of warts to go around. Often it's inappropriate credit the success or blame failure on the union. The personality of the pilot group very often comes into play. Not to mention the quality of the business model or management team.
Maybe you can also tell us about how many concessionary contracts they have signed in that time. Or how much they have shrunk...or grown...in terms of membership.
Your argument about what happened 10-20 years ago...under different leadership and using that as your basis for making factual observations makes about as much sense as using last Wednesdays weather for planning a fuel load.
And no, I'm not PO'd at ALPA. I wore those wings for over 25 years with great pride. It breaks my heart to see what people with self serving agendas have done to the people of ALPA and the pilots.
05-09-2012 | 05:24 PM
#78
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From: What day is it?
I don't come around here too much. This place makes FI look like a civil discussion.
As for Bruce, the Director of Representation has nothing to do with handling litigation. That's what the Legal Department is for. Yet more proof that despite your claims to the contrary, you really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to ALPA.
As for Bruce, the Director of Representation has nothing to do with handling litigation. That's what the Legal Department is for. Yet more proof that despite your claims to the contrary, you really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to ALPA.
Let me guess...you will prevail and SWAPA will beg to join ALPA, right?
05-10-2012 | 06:19 AM
#80
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Joined: Oct 2006
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From: B757/767
While the rest of the airline unions were standing up to keep the minimum experience requirements high, ALPA was siding with ATA, aviation universities and the industry in favor of lowering them. FAA stood back because they figured that even if CAPA, IBT and others came out for the higher numbers, if ALPA came out with the lower recommendations, they'd have the cover of saying, "well, ALPA says it's OK, so...." IBT, CAPA, APA, IPA, UPS, SWAPA and others spent lots more time and effort on the issue.
Now, assuming you are correct and ALPA did all the heavy lifting on FTDT...and I disagree...explain for us all how the long standing mantra "One Level of Safety" became..."Well, for everyone but Cargo and the guys who fly our troops...because they aren't real pilots and don't need the same rest." Everyone else fought...where was ALPA's outrage? Not until FedEx raised cain and talked decert, did ALPA move. And then it was with a joke of a meeting in New Orleans. Moak never intended it to be anything but something to wave at them to say, "Look! We had a MEETING."
ALPA became the joke and the point of anger for every friend that pilots have on the Hill on this one. They were seen as an absolute joke compared to what it was in the past. Prater was seen from Day 1 as a buffoon in a suit who liked to glad hand and give neckrubs to the NTSB Administrator (nice)...while he was looking for his next job as a lobbyist in DC. Lee, sadly isn't seen much better.
Those aren't my opinions. Those are the opinions of staffers, Congressmen, Senators and lobbyists. They invite ALPA as window dressing, but consider it a paper tiger.
Now, assuming you are correct and ALPA did all the heavy lifting on FTDT...and I disagree...explain for us all how the long standing mantra "One Level of Safety" became..."Well, for everyone but Cargo and the guys who fly our troops...because they aren't real pilots and don't need the same rest." Everyone else fought...where was ALPA's outrage? Not until FedEx raised cain and talked decert, did ALPA move. And then it was with a joke of a meeting in New Orleans. Moak never intended it to be anything but something to wave at them to say, "Look! We had a MEETING."
ALPA became the joke and the point of anger for every friend that pilots have on the Hill on this one. They were seen as an absolute joke compared to what it was in the past. Prater was seen from Day 1 as a buffoon in a suit who liked to glad hand and give neckrubs to the NTSB Administrator (nice)...while he was looking for his next job as a lobbyist in DC. Lee, sadly isn't seen much better.
Those aren't my opinions. Those are the opinions of staffers, Congressmen, Senators and lobbyists. They invite ALPA as window dressing, but consider it a paper tiger.
It's clear you don't truly pay attention to what's going on. ALPA always was, and STILL is, fighting for one level of safety. They're still spending money lobbying for it. I don't know what IBT is doing, but I do know ALPA is doing something.
Maybe you should be asking your leadership this. Why has ALPA given each of the top four carriers an individual office on the 8th floor at Mass. Avenue and full FPL so they can go lobby the Hill? Is it because they can't do the job...or because they are so scared that a decert by any of them would collapse the house?
No one wants to see ALPA fail, me especially. There are too many good people there who really care about pilots. But unless ALPA pulls their head out of the sand and deals with the real, systemic flaws that they keep glossing over...they can't survive as a viable voice.
As far as them not showing you anything...I'd challenge you to pick up the phone and call their Division Director and talk directly to him. Don't worry...he talks "pilot"...as they say, "he are one." I'd bet you a paycheck he'll take your call and talk to you at length. You could talk to his Assistant Director...who was a senior Contract Administrator who was one of the six illegally fired by ALPA and won their jobs back (yeah, that one cost ALPA $$ too when they were found guilty and they had to post the award on the doors). Or their senior negotiator...a guy named Dubinsky.
Make the call…but don’t worry about the bet. I don’t want you losing the paycheck.
As far as them not showing you anything...I'd challenge you to pick up the phone and call their Division Director and talk directly to him. Don't worry...he talks "pilot"...as they say, "he are one." I'd bet you a paycheck he'll take your call and talk to you at length. You could talk to his Assistant Director...who was a senior Contract Administrator who was one of the six illegally fired by ALPA and won their jobs back (yeah, that one cost ALPA $$ too when they were found guilty and they had to post the award on the doors). Or their senior negotiator...a guy named Dubinsky.
Make the call…but don’t worry about the bet. I don’t want you losing the paycheck.
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