How's the DENTK looking now?
09-12-2017, 07:48 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: WB Bunkie
Posts: 1,246
Signs you may be an Internet tough guy:
Based on absolutely no evidence, you put me in an easily villifiable group, given the leanings of people on this site. Otherwise known as pandering, or preaching to the choir.
So you are lumping me with a group that I have not indicated any inclination toward in my words or actions. Not to mention that the group in question was probably over 80% of UAL at the time. Hindsight is 20/20, so its easy to say they caved. I wasn't in their shoes, its hard to say what I would've advocated/voted for. But i was commuting then. I listened to a lot of justifying and fear disguised as reason. Who could blame them? It was an unprecedented time.
You allude to the fact that I may be unprincipled because I'd like to have a nuanced discussion of the facts.
Classic internet tough guy stuff. In the end, most things in life aren't as simple as a yes or no vote. With us or against us. Blue or Red. MSNBC or FOX. The spectrum of what pilots want out of the next contract has at least 12,000 points between a willing BOHICA and the categorical NO. So, maybe my desire to hear more wisdom from a reliable source (mako) belies humility and a sense that others may have something to add to my perspective, rather than the internet tough guy, who comes here to preach his over-developed opinions
Maybe you're a source of wisdom Grumble, and the wife and drink have you representing your handle unusually well, but your post came off as the epitome of tough-guy-I'm the sheriff 'round these parts-forumitus, not an enlightened and unique perspective. And if you're not adding the conversation, merely providing a predictable echo, why waste your breath?
Originally Posted by Grumble
If you didn't stand firm the first time, what spine did you magically grow since then?
So you are lumping me with a group that I have not indicated any inclination toward in my words or actions. Not to mention that the group in question was probably over 80% of UAL at the time. Hindsight is 20/20, so its easy to say they caved. I wasn't in their shoes, its hard to say what I would've advocated/voted for. But i was commuting then. I listened to a lot of justifying and fear disguised as reason. Who could blame them? It was an unprecedented time.
Originally Posted by Grumble
"Tough guy forumitis".... maybe the problem is you and your lack of confidence that's easily intimidated by those with conviction.
Classic internet tough guy stuff. In the end, most things in life aren't as simple as a yes or no vote. With us or against us. Blue or Red. MSNBC or FOX. The spectrum of what pilots want out of the next contract has at least 12,000 points between a willing BOHICA and the categorical NO. So, maybe my desire to hear more wisdom from a reliable source (mako) belies humility and a sense that others may have something to add to my perspective, rather than the internet tough guy, who comes here to preach his over-developed opinions
Maybe you're a source of wisdom Grumble, and the wife and drink have you representing your handle unusually well, but your post came off as the epitome of tough-guy-I'm the sheriff 'round these parts-forumitus, not an enlightened and unique perspective. And if you're not adding the conversation, merely providing a predictable echo, why waste your breath?
09-12-2017, 08:09 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,193
Originally Posted by duvie
Signs you may be an Internet tough guy:
Based on absolutely no evidence, you put me in an easily villifiable group, given the leanings of people on this site. Otherwise known as pandering, or preaching to the choir.
So you are lumping me with a group that I have not indicated any inclination toward in my words or actions. Not to mention that the group in question was probably over 80% of UAL at the time. Hindsight is 20/20, so its easy to say they caved. I wasn't in their shoes, its hard to say what I would've advocated/voted for. But i was commuting then. I listened to a lot of justifying and fear disguised as reason. Who could blame them? It was an unprecedented time.
You allude to the fact that I may be unprincipled because I'd like to have a nuanced discussion of the facts.
Classic internet tough guy stuff. In the end, most things in life aren't as simple as a yes or no vote. With us or against us. Blue or Red. MSNBC or FOX. The spectrum of what pilots want out of the next contract has at least 12,000 points between a willing BOHICA and the categorical NO. So, maybe my desire to hear more wisdom from a reliable source (mako) belies humility and a sense that others may have something to add to my perspective, rather than the internet tough guy, who comes here to preach his over-developed opinions
Maybe you're a source of wisdom Grumble, and the wife and drink have you representing your handle unusually well, but your post came off as the epitome of tough-guy-I'm the sheriff 'round these parts-forumitus, not an enlightened and unique perspective. And if you're not adding the conversation, merely providing a predictable echo, why waste your breath?
Based on absolutely no evidence, you put me in an easily villifiable group, given the leanings of people on this site. Otherwise known as pandering, or preaching to the choir.
So you are lumping me with a group that I have not indicated any inclination toward in my words or actions. Not to mention that the group in question was probably over 80% of UAL at the time. Hindsight is 20/20, so its easy to say they caved. I wasn't in their shoes, its hard to say what I would've advocated/voted for. But i was commuting then. I listened to a lot of justifying and fear disguised as reason. Who could blame them? It was an unprecedented time.
You allude to the fact that I may be unprincipled because I'd like to have a nuanced discussion of the facts.
Classic internet tough guy stuff. In the end, most things in life aren't as simple as a yes or no vote. With us or against us. Blue or Red. MSNBC or FOX. The spectrum of what pilots want out of the next contract has at least 12,000 points between a willing BOHICA and the categorical NO. So, maybe my desire to hear more wisdom from a reliable source (mako) belies humility and a sense that others may have something to add to my perspective, rather than the internet tough guy, who comes here to preach his over-developed opinions
Maybe you're a source of wisdom Grumble, and the wife and drink have you representing your handle unusually well, but your post came off as the epitome of tough-guy-I'm the sheriff 'round these parts-forumitus, not an enlightened and unique perspective. And if you're not adding the conversation, merely providing a predictable echo, why waste your breath?
09-12-2017, 08:11 PM
#43
Don't say Guppy
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: Guppy driver
Posts: 1,926
Originally Posted by oldmako
Well, not to be a jerk but more to try and refresh the memory of the old farts and to promote dialog and to educate the half wingers and Marvins,
Times were also pretty good when we -
Enjoyed Deadhead travel in First Class,
Had a lucrative Pension,
Had Vacation Override, ("can you say more time at home"?)
Paid MUCH less for Health Insurance,
Got paid MUCH more per hour when adjusted for inflation and COLA,
Bid actual lines and didn't have to deal with QOL life sucking PBS, ("can you say more time at home"?)
Could actually trade and or drop trips,
Had the Big Dump,
Had Trip and Duty Rigs with teeth, ("can you say more time at home"?)
Got paid more for training,
Enjoyed crystal clear and SIMPLE payroll accounting,
Understood FIFO and your spot in the stack,
Could EASILY Non-Rev, (often in First and for... bupkis!),
Didn't have to deal with AMS and Pilot Pushing, (did someone say, -"Captains Authority"???)
Weren't taxed on a whole MESS of stuff like we are now - at the behest of MU.
etc.
etc.
etc
Yes...I am a cranky malcontent. But, before we all start willingly and gleefully smoking what they're offering while patting ourselves on the back, let's not forget what we used to enjoy and HOW it was wrested away during the giant Ponzi scheme that was our "bankruptcy". Tell me, where did that last big avoided pension payment money go? Yes(!), things have improved. But lets not relax our sphincters and lose sight of what we once had. And of what the recent retirees fought so hard for AND WON when times were merely ordinary and MU wasn't the juggernaut that it is today.
There are apples, and there are oranges. I prefer citrus myself.
Times were also pretty good when we -
Enjoyed Deadhead travel in First Class,
Had a lucrative Pension,
Had Vacation Override, ("can you say more time at home"?)
Paid MUCH less for Health Insurance,
Got paid MUCH more per hour when adjusted for inflation and COLA,
Bid actual lines and didn't have to deal with QOL life sucking PBS, ("can you say more time at home"?)
Could actually trade and or drop trips,
Had the Big Dump,
Had Trip and Duty Rigs with teeth, ("can you say more time at home"?)
Got paid more for training,
Enjoyed crystal clear and SIMPLE payroll accounting,
Understood FIFO and your spot in the stack,
Could EASILY Non-Rev, (often in First and for... bupkis!),
Didn't have to deal with AMS and Pilot Pushing, (did someone say, -"Captains Authority"???)
Weren't taxed on a whole MESS of stuff like we are now - at the behest of MU.
etc.
etc.
etc
Yes...I am a cranky malcontent. But, before we all start willingly and gleefully smoking what they're offering while patting ourselves on the back, let's not forget what we used to enjoy and HOW it was wrested away during the giant Ponzi scheme that was our "bankruptcy". Tell me, where did that last big avoided pension payment money go? Yes(!), things have improved. But lets not relax our sphincters and lose sight of what we once had. And of what the recent retirees fought so hard for AND WON when times were merely ordinary and MU wasn't the juggernaut that it is today.
There are apples, and there are oranges. I prefer citrus myself.
09-13-2017, 05:47 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,083
Originally Posted by Probe
All true James, but remember, we were, and are volunteers in the process. None of it was taken from us, we voted for it.
09-13-2017, 06:00 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 705
Originally Posted by duvie
Mako,
Your posts are generally a wonderful light in a sea of tough-guy-forumitus.
This particular post... were you referencing any C2000 stuff? Because that contract IMHO was an outlier and not a sustainable contract to be referenced for future negotiations. I, and I think many others, would rather leave some money on the table, but keep my pay up during economic down turns, rather than choke the golden goose, and lose it all when said goose loses consciousness a la David Carradine (too soon?)
I get the company can come after a sub par contract as well during recessions, but I think many of us are still acutely aware of being duped by management and anti-labor governments and would stand firmer next time around, especially if the contract wasn't like C2000 and the recession wasn't the worst since the 1930s.
FWIW
Your posts are generally a wonderful light in a sea of tough-guy-forumitus.
This particular post... were you referencing any C2000 stuff? Because that contract IMHO was an outlier and not a sustainable contract to be referenced for future negotiations. I, and I think many others, would rather leave some money on the table, but keep my pay up during economic down turns, rather than choke the golden goose, and lose it all when said goose loses consciousness a la David Carradine (too soon?)
I get the company can come after a sub par contract as well during recessions, but I think many of us are still acutely aware of being duped by management and anti-labor governments and would stand firmer next time around, especially if the contract wasn't like C2000 and the recession wasn't the worst since the 1930s.
FWIW
The only way management can void our contract is through bankruptcy. I seriously doubt management will declare CH11 for every economic downturn to secure contract concessions. To leave money on the table is only selling yourself, and my family, short. Take all you can get. Management certainly did during bankruptcy and continues to this day.
The majors don't come after a contract like the regionals do. At the regionals pilots are told take a cut or lose flying via whipsaw. At the majors, the company just doesn't negotiate and hides behind the RLA. Time is on their side.
Finally, C2000 was in...2000, and the "Great" recession was in 2007. Just saying.
09-13-2017, 06:31 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 705
Originally Posted by XHooker
Yes and no. The environment changed and the choices went from the menu at a five star steakhouse to the dollar menu at McDs. Right now we're doing pretty well considering the hand we've been dealt. I just try to forget about what we had "back in the day" and hope we aren't soon remembering the present as "the good times."
Just because Darla Sue doesn't beat you anymore does it mean she has your best interest at heart.
09-13-2017, 07:59 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,671
Originally Posted by Floyd
To characterize C2000 as an outlier shows a lack of historical understanding. C2000 was a byproduct of the give backs suffered during the ESOP. After some difficulty we secured a mid term wage adjustment in '97, but C2000 was essentially catch up from '94. For those who think we're enjoying a lucrative compensation package, you might change your mind if you compare past contracts adjusted for inflation.
While C2000 was a raise of ~30% on average, after the ESOP give/midterm and adjusted for COL/inflation taken into accout, wasn't it only about 10-12%?
777CA on C2000, $289. Adjusted, for today $407
756 CA on C2000, $242. Adjusted for today $341
Airbus CA on C2000, $232. Adjusted for today $326
Never mind all the things Mako brought up......
09-13-2017, 08:24 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,193
Originally Posted by John Carr
^^^^^Can't be said often/LOUD enough.
While C2000 was a raise of ~30% on average, after the ESOP give/midterm and adjusted for COL/inflation taken into accout, wasn't it only about 10-12%?
777CA on C2000, $289. Adjusted, for today $407
756 CA on C2000, $242. Adjusted for today $341
Airbus CA on C2000, $232. Adjusted for today $326
Never mind all the things Mako brought up......
While C2000 was a raise of ~30% on average, after the ESOP give/midterm and adjusted for COL/inflation taken into accout, wasn't it only about 10-12%?
777CA on C2000, $289. Adjusted, for today $407
756 CA on C2000, $242. Adjusted for today $341
Airbus CA on C2000, $232. Adjusted for today $326
Never mind all the things Mako brought up......
09-13-2017, 08:44 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,671
Originally Posted by Grumble
Given what was stolen from the esop, I'd argue those numbers still aren't high enough to recoup those losses.
09-13-2017, 09:14 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Position: On guard
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by JetPilotMike
My first time (in a long time) visit to TK last year for 737 MVLOE. While waiting to check into hotel, a couple of IAH based 737 guys were *****ing up a storm about having to travel to Denver. They went on and on about how a snow storm could shut down DENTK and how could they not have built in Houston. I said what if a big storm shut down Houston and they said that would never happen. 
My thoughts on this are, Denver has a very stange climate, it can snow in summer and it usually snows in winter. With climate change, I am not certain that this will get any better in the same way that Houston is bound to have more hurricanes, or at least more powerful ones.
The difference is Houston does not generally experience multiple hurricanes annually (it had been 12 years since the last major hurricane made landfall in the USA), where Denver does expect multiple snow falls every winter.
So while it is rare for Denver to receive 10 or more inches in one day, it would be unrealistic to say that Houston is more likely to be shut down. Harvey was a record breaker, beating Amelia's 48 inches of rainfall in 1978 (39 years ago).
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