787 getting Premium Pay Trips
06-24-2020 | 10:42 PM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,510
Likes: 109
I’ve been here 25+ years, and pilots not picking up PP trips or not accepting SRM has never resulted in the company bringing back pilots before they were ready to. They would just cancel the trip, and that pilot income opportunity would be gone. Plus many pilots have been forcibly downgraded in pay, and they will want to make up for that. Everything done within the limits of the contract is fair game. If ALPA wants new rules, they can agree to them contractually with the company, otherwise its status quo.
If you are advocating taking an action against the company that is not something we have been regularly and notoriously been doing for the past 5+ years, then you can do that yourself. I will operate no differently than I have in the past, unless ALPA puts out something official. “Official” means published by the MEC. Not an individual pilot spreading his personal agenda.
If you are actually concerned with furloughees coming back then the best thing you can do to help is to make sure that the company is doing well operationally and financially so that the company will grow to a point where they need to recall furloughed pilots. Making it difficult on the company is not going to get them to act in the way you are suggesting. If we are doing poorly, we are either going to set ourselves up for a merger which, as you may have noticed, does not work out well for furloughed pilots or management will want to further shrink to become profitable.
I see no issues with making sure we are doing well financially as a company, so as to bring back our furloughed pilots as fast as possible, and if in doing so the company is being forced to pay pilots more because of their poor planning, then that its a win-win.
If you are advocating taking an action against the company that is not something we have been regularly and notoriously been doing for the past 5+ years, then you can do that yourself. I will operate no differently than I have in the past, unless ALPA puts out something official. “Official” means published by the MEC. Not an individual pilot spreading his personal agenda.
If you are actually concerned with furloughees coming back then the best thing you can do to help is to make sure that the company is doing well operationally and financially so that the company will grow to a point where they need to recall furloughed pilots. Making it difficult on the company is not going to get them to act in the way you are suggesting. If we are doing poorly, we are either going to set ourselves up for a merger which, as you may have noticed, does not work out well for furloughed pilots or management will want to further shrink to become profitable.
I see no issues with making sure we are doing well financially as a company, so as to bring back our furloughed pilots as fast as possible, and if in doing so the company is being forced to pay pilots more because of their poor planning, then that its a win-win.
Anything within the limits of the UPA is fair game. If the MEC has issues with this, they can engage the company on it. You should talk to your LEC reps and explain that you want modifications to the UPA regarding PPU.
Keep in mind that PPU is a “get” for the pilot group. The company did not want to have to potentially pay double for someone to fly a trip, as well as possibly having to drop another trip and pay protect for that as well. Having just taken a substantial pay cut from WB left to WB right, I will certainly be utilizing PPU if the opportunity arises. The company has never recalled pilots because pilots refused to fly, and if all of a sudden pilots stopped doing PPU, they would take ALPA to court for violating the status quo.
Keep in mind that PPU is a “get” for the pilot group. The company did not want to have to potentially pay double for someone to fly a trip, as well as possibly having to drop another trip and pay protect for that as well. Having just taken a substantial pay cut from WB left to WB right, I will certainly be utilizing PPU if the opportunity arises. The company has never recalled pilots because pilots refused to fly, and if all of a sudden pilots stopped doing PPU, they would take ALPA to court for violating the status quo.
PPU is a tool to make up for manning shortfalls during times of plenty, when hiring and the pilot supply can’t keep up with demand. It’s a win win when times are good. It was never intended as a tool for mgmt to take advantage of the selfish nature of the Richards like you to keep furloughs on the street.
Last edited by Grumble; 06-24-2020 at 10:56 PM.
06-25-2020 | 04:06 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
If we, as a collective group, stop picking up PP, or open time in general the company will staff those flights by getting an injunction against us for an illegal job action. And then sue the union to recoup the lost revenue.
You guys are forgetting who your dealing with, and how much of a disadvantage we are at.
You guys are forgetting who your dealing with, and how much of a disadvantage we are at.
06-25-2020 | 04:56 AM
#63
Slam-Clicka
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,571
Likes: 85
06-25-2020 | 06:19 AM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
From: 737/FO
If we, as a collective group, stop picking up PP, or open time in general the company will staff those flights by getting an injunction against us for an illegal job action. And then sue the union to recoup the lost revenue.
You guys are forgetting who your dealing with, and how much of a disadvantage we are at.
You guys are forgetting who your dealing with, and how much of a disadvantage we are at.
If we did something like this to force a new UPA or something of that nature I’d be inclined to agree with your assumptions. When the company can’t meet demand while pilots on property are flying the contract and management has a plentiful bench of furloughed pilots to recall, I find it hard to see a court say our union owes the company money because the members didn’t chose to line their pockets with PP trips and when all management had to do was recall furloughed pilots to meet demand.
Again, I’ll admit lack of airline business lawyer level knowledge, but the context and assumptions you make about past PP pickups may be associated with other reasons and environments that pilots may choose not to pick up PP trips. Nobody suggests pilots should not trip trade or aggressive pick up for reserves, QoL choices, etc. This is about greedy people being greedy. Paint it however else you want. If someone is going to go to the hog trough so be it. It’s a Richard move and I doubt those who will do it can be persuaded not to do so or that they will lose a minute of sleep.
06-25-2020 | 07:19 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 323
Likes: 0
I think most people think PPU right now is fine, no one is in the street and I personally don’t see a problem with it. But are you really saying you are going to pick up premium after Oct and we have 1000’s on the street?
06-25-2020 | 07:32 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
If you had a terrible non-commutable 3 day that left on Tuesday, but then there was a 4 day PP that left on Monday that was much better you’re saying its ok to trade those trips (you are going to use QOL as your excuse), but if that 4 day becomes a PP trip, you can’t trade it? What about QOL? I guess you’d just call and ask them to remove the PP so you could trade.
The only solution is that all trip trading and pick up needs to end. Any trading HELPS the company, or they would not allow anyone to do it.
06-25-2020 | 07:44 AM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
But people want to rationalize aggressive PU or trip trading, when it helps the company.
If I were the company and lineholders stopped picking up trips in a way they did in the past, I’d just have less lineholders and more reserves. I’m sure that would make a lot of people not happy.
We need to have a max pay cap of 75 hours, and no trip trading. That’s the only thing that will help bring furloughees back.
There is so much hypocrisy here it is sickening.
06-25-2020 | 07:52 AM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
The hypocrisy on here is astounding.
06-25-2020 | 07:59 AM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 323
Likes: 0
Most likely not. If we really cared, we would all trip drop to the limit and nobody would do any trip trading. But we will have people to drop a 15 hour 3 day and pick up an 18 hour 3 day. They will claim it was more commutable, etc. Or they will drop a trip on a day that there is a lot of coverage and pickup a trip on a day where there was no coverage saying “QOL” when in fact they are helping the company without knowing it. The company will fully utilize its control of the trip trade system to their advantage.
But people want to rationalize aggressive PU or trip trading, when it helps the company.
If I were the company and lineholders stopped picking up trips in a way they did in the past, I’d just have less lineholders and more reserves. I’m sure that would make a lot of people not happy.
We need to have a max pay cap of 75 hours, and no trip trading. That’s the only thing that will help bring furloughees back.
There is so much hypocrisy here it is sickening.
But people want to rationalize aggressive PU or trip trading, when it helps the company.
If I were the company and lineholders stopped picking up trips in a way they did in the past, I’d just have less lineholders and more reserves. I’m sure that would make a lot of people not happy.
We need to have a max pay cap of 75 hours, and no trip trading. That’s the only thing that will help bring furloughees back.
There is so much hypocrisy here it is sickening.
06-25-2020 | 08:20 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
From: 737/FO
How is trip trading or aggressive pick up any different? If it did not help the company, they wouldn’t let you do it. If you wanted a weekend trip dropped to pick up a weekday trip, the company would just block you, unless it helped them. Using your own words you are helping the company as well with their staffing problem.
If you had a terrible non-commutable 3 day that left on Tuesday, but then there was a 4 day PP that left on Monday that was much better you’re saying its ok to trade those trips (you are going to use QOL as your excuse), but if that 4 day becomes a PP trip, you can’t trade it? What about QOL? I guess you’d just call and ask them to remove the PP so you could trade.
The only solution is that all trip trading and pick up needs to end. Any trading HELPS the company, or they would not allow anyone to do it.
If you had a terrible non-commutable 3 day that left on Tuesday, but then there was a 4 day PP that left on Monday that was much better you’re saying its ok to trade those trips (you are going to use QOL as your excuse), but if that 4 day becomes a PP trip, you can’t trade it? What about QOL? I guess you’d just call and ask them to remove the PP so you could trade.
The only solution is that all trip trading and pick up needs to end. Any trading HELPS the company, or they would not allow anyone to do it.
People will do what they gotta do. I’ll leave it at that and let you continue to advocate your position. Which I don’t think your wrong, its just different than mine. Each of us get to have a belief and hold a position and each of us gets to decide how they think best to support the pilot group.
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