Agreement in Principle
09-10-2020 | 05:25 PM
#311
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
From: Off to the left!
I've been an ALPA member for almost 25 years, with the majority being other carriers than United. One thing I have seen over that time, ALPA ALWAYS screws the junior people to protect the senior people. I understand this is all rumors for now, but it makes little sense to me to give the biggest pay cut to the cheapest part of your pilot group. Some will say that any pay is better than being furloughed, but do you really think this will end when they say it will? How long has the contract been amenable for?
For those of you saying "just pick up open time," I would say what open time? The BES I am in, any open trip usually goes pretty senior, and there's very little of it. There's very little chance for junior people to pick up anything. Imagine having 400 pilots in your BES. How do you think that will work out for line building and reserves, especially if everybody is under different rules. How to you make sure the reserve assignment is correct if you don't know what rules even apply?
It's also very disappointing to see ALPA potentially dividing this pilot group in to four distinct groups: management/ALPA pilots (who will probably see very little change in their MPG), top 1/3, middle 1/3, and bottom 1/3. Are the rules for all groups going to be different since we all will have different MPGs? How do I know which group I fit in? Can it change?
I am not in the 2850 facing furlough now, but I am in the 3900 if they go that far. If this AIP is anything close to the rumors, it will do lasting damage to this pilot group. One group will be pitted against another. More importantly, the company will be able to blame the pilots now for furloughs if this doesn't pass. It's a poor position to be in.
For those of you saying "just pick up open time," I would say what open time? The BES I am in, any open trip usually goes pretty senior, and there's very little of it. There's very little chance for junior people to pick up anything. Imagine having 400 pilots in your BES. How do you think that will work out for line building and reserves, especially if everybody is under different rules. How to you make sure the reserve assignment is correct if you don't know what rules even apply?
It's also very disappointing to see ALPA potentially dividing this pilot group in to four distinct groups: management/ALPA pilots (who will probably see very little change in their MPG), top 1/3, middle 1/3, and bottom 1/3. Are the rules for all groups going to be different since we all will have different MPGs? How do I know which group I fit in? Can it change?
I am not in the 2850 facing furlough now, but I am in the 3900 if they go that far. If this AIP is anything close to the rumors, it will do lasting damage to this pilot group. One group will be pitted against another. More importantly, the company will be able to blame the pilots now for furloughs if this doesn't pass. It's a poor position to be in.
09-10-2020 | 05:25 PM
#312
Slam-Clicka
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,570
Likes: 85
If this comes to MR and is voted down, who will be cast as the bad guys when the furloughs happen? The 'middle ⅓' ...that's who. If it passes and we have the 'top ⅓' raking in premium pay and high credit time while the 'bottom ⅓' gets stuck commuting to reserve for 36.5 credit hours who will be the bad guys? The top ⅓, that's who. I can't even fathom that we helped create this new divisive scheme...
09-10-2020 | 05:26 PM
#313
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,512
Likes: 0
From: 787 Captain
Does anyone think SK will do something shady to buy votes? Something like "In anticipation of a yes vote from the pilot group we are holding off on furloughs until November 1st." He has obviously put the fear of God into a lot of people. It's pretty difficult to look at a TA objectivity when you're staring down the barrel of a gun. Just doing some napkin math, it usually takes at least a week to get the final language and present that to the MEC. If they vote to send it to MEMRAT you are looking at about a month of road shows before the vote. So looking at the end of October at the earliest? If the majority of his intended yes voters are furloughed October 1st they won't be eligible to vote. Am I missing something?
09-10-2020 | 05:29 PM
#314
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
From: Off to the left!
Does anyone think SK will do something shady to buy votes? Something like "In anticipation of a yes vote from the pilot group we are holding off on furloughs until November 1st." He has obviously put the fear of God into a lot of people. It's pretty difficult to look at a TA objectivity when you're staring down the barrel of a gun. Just doing some napkin math, it usually takes at least a week to get the final language and present that to the MEC. If they vote to send it to MEMRAT you are looking at about a month of road shows before the vote. So looking at the end of October at the earliest? If the majority of his intended yes voters are furloughed October 1st they won't be eligible to vote. Am I missing something?
09-10-2020 | 05:45 PM
#316
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 175
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Put them back in their old seats where they will sit reserve for a long time. That’s better than a carve out and decent seniority in their new FO seat.
09-10-2020 | 06:41 PM
#317
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,512
Likes: 0
From: 787 Captain
Our seniority based systems will dictate 'winners and losers' in a predictable way...a way that we all accepted and understood from the very beginning. If we (ALPA) creates a NEW system of winners and losers based on unpredictable factors and decisions it will be a HUGE mistake. Heck, we're still living with the stretch marks and scars from the pension 'stovepipe'
. If the displacements are cancelled for some, they should be cancelled for all. If there is pay protection then we should all get a 'do over' and rebid the displacements. What about the pilots who elected NOT to take the early out? They could've walked with 50hrs/month and ZERO work, now the middle ⅓ will be paid 56 and have to work all 56. Should they get another opportunity to grab that early out? This could be a disaster of our own making.
09-10-2020 | 06:47 PM
#318
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
I like how we've gone from 'Thoughts and prayers' for the furloughees, to 'They want to cut my pay WTF?!?!?'
ALPA represents the entire pilot group, not just the senior guys. And it's obvious that since there is even going to be a TA that the union believes it's in the best interest of the pilot group to try and mitigate these furloughs likely through some sort of shared sacrifice. Ultimately, what that agreement will be has yet to be seen. At which point everyone will have to make their own decision on which way to vote.
That said there seems to be a number of individuals here with crystal balls tuned to the same frequency. They're predicting that if this TA gets passed that's where the bankruptcy judge will start cutting. I say, how do you know we're going into bankruptcy? And how do you know it will be reorganization and not liquidation? And if it's reorganization maybe there will be consolidation too. At which point those of us who are getting furloughed would be a lot happier to be active rather than furloughed during an integration.
My point more or less being, that there's way too much speculation going on. And before deciding we're on the Titanic and this thing is a giant iceberg we're heading straight for... maybe everyone should settle down until we can actually read it.
ALPA represents the entire pilot group, not just the senior guys. And it's obvious that since there is even going to be a TA that the union believes it's in the best interest of the pilot group to try and mitigate these furloughs likely through some sort of shared sacrifice. Ultimately, what that agreement will be has yet to be seen. At which point everyone will have to make their own decision on which way to vote.
That said there seems to be a number of individuals here with crystal balls tuned to the same frequency. They're predicting that if this TA gets passed that's where the bankruptcy judge will start cutting. I say, how do you know we're going into bankruptcy? And how do you know it will be reorganization and not liquidation? And if it's reorganization maybe there will be consolidation too. At which point those of us who are getting furloughed would be a lot happier to be active rather than furloughed during an integration.
My point more or less being, that there's way too much speculation going on. And before deciding we're on the Titanic and this thing is a giant iceberg we're heading straight for... maybe everyone should settle down until we can actually read it.
09-10-2020 | 06:52 PM
#319
On Reserve
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
I agree with you on this one. I'm going to read this part very closely and it could be a poison pill if it's anywhere close to the way it sounds.
Our seniority based systems will dictate 'winners and losers' in a predictable way...a way that we all accepted and understood from the very beginning. If we (ALPA) creates a NEW system of winners and losers based on unpredictable factors and decisions it will be a HUGE mistake. Heck, we're still living with the stretch marks and scars from the pension 'stovepipe'. If the displacements are cancelled for some, they should be cancelled for all. If there is pay protection then we should all get a 'do over' and rebid the displacements. What about the pilots who elected NOT to take the early out? They could've walked with 50hrs/month and ZERO work, now the middle ⅓ will be paid 56 and have to work all 56. Should they get another opportunity to grab that early out? This could be a disaster of our own making.
Our seniority based systems will dictate 'winners and losers' in a predictable way...a way that we all accepted and understood from the very beginning. If we (ALPA) creates a NEW system of winners and losers based on unpredictable factors and decisions it will be a HUGE mistake. Heck, we're still living with the stretch marks and scars from the pension 'stovepipe'
. If the displacements are cancelled for some, they should be cancelled for all. If there is pay protection then we should all get a 'do over' and rebid the displacements. What about the pilots who elected NOT to take the early out? They could've walked with 50hrs/month and ZERO work, now the middle ⅓ will be paid 56 and have to work all 56. Should they get another opportunity to grab that early out? This could be a disaster of our own making.
09-10-2020 | 06:54 PM
#320
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,512
Likes: 0
From: 787 Captain
I like how we've gone from 'Thoughts and prayers' for the furloughees, to 'They want to cut my pay WTF?!?!?'
ALPA represents the entire pilot group, not just the senior guys. And it's obvious that since there is even going to be a TA that the union believes it's in the best interest of the pilot group to try and mitigate these furloughs likely through some sort of shared sacrifice. Ultimately, what that agreement will be has yet to be seen. At which point everyone will have to make their own decision on which way to vote.
That said there seems to be a number of individuals here with crystal balls tuned to the same frequency. They're predicting that if this TA gets passed that's where the bankruptcy judge will start cutting. I say, how do you know we're going into bankruptcy? And how do you know it will be reorganization and not liquidation? And if it's reorganization maybe there will be consolidation too. At which point those of us who are getting furloughed would be a lot happier to be active rather than furloughed during an integration.
My point more or less being, that there's way too much speculation going on. And before deciding we're on the Titanic and this thing is a giant iceberg we're heading straight for... maybe everyone should settle down until we can actually read it.
ALPA represents the entire pilot group, not just the senior guys. And it's obvious that since there is even going to be a TA that the union believes it's in the best interest of the pilot group to try and mitigate these furloughs likely through some sort of shared sacrifice. Ultimately, what that agreement will be has yet to be seen. At which point everyone will have to make their own decision on which way to vote.
That said there seems to be a number of individuals here with crystal balls tuned to the same frequency. They're predicting that if this TA gets passed that's where the bankruptcy judge will start cutting. I say, how do you know we're going into bankruptcy? And how do you know it will be reorganization and not liquidation? And if it's reorganization maybe there will be consolidation too. At which point those of us who are getting furloughed would be a lot happier to be active rather than furloughed during an integration.
My point more or less being, that there's way too much speculation going on. And before deciding we're on the Titanic and this thing is a giant iceberg we're heading straight for... maybe everyone should settle down until we can actually read it.
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