Profit Sharing
02-13-2012 | 06:52 AM
#71
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,980
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From: 737 CAPT
Certainly you are not going to argue that there was even the slightest possibility that the sale of a few 767-200's would harm the CAL pilots to the tune of $8500/pilot? That is so void of rational thought that only the inexperienced would remotely accept that as a possibility.
Yes, J Pos received instructions from the CAL mec, and he rightfully attempted to gain profit sharing within the confines of the TPA. Your MEC was well within their right to seek benefits for the CAL pilots. You are not going to find many UAL pilots who don't think you should get $40 million. The issue arises when there is a belief the status quo was violated at the hand of UCH management vis a vis J Pos.
So it's okay to renew a TPA giving CAL pilots profit sharing. A TPA that currently does not include profit sharing for CAL pilots. But it is not okay to ask for a monetary gain for the UAL pilots. A financial benefit which is not currently included for the UAL pilots. It's called status quo.
Unrealistic demands presented to management? They are called opening requests. Negotiations usually ensue. Amazing how quick it was for UCH management to walk away, only to return to J Pos to craft a nifty little side deal.
Profit sharing was a negotiated benefit for the UAL to partially offset the pay losses we incurred in bankruptcy. Yes, you incurred a pay cut as well, but not like the haircut we took. You make how much more than us? Right.
Yes, J Pos received instructions from the CAL mec, and he rightfully attempted to gain profit sharing within the confines of the TPA. Your MEC was well within their right to seek benefits for the CAL pilots. You are not going to find many UAL pilots who don't think you should get $40 million. The issue arises when there is a belief the status quo was violated at the hand of UCH management vis a vis J Pos.
So it's okay to renew a TPA giving CAL pilots profit sharing. A TPA that currently does not include profit sharing for CAL pilots. But it is not okay to ask for a monetary gain for the UAL pilots. A financial benefit which is not currently included for the UAL pilots. It's called status quo.
Unrealistic demands presented to management? They are called opening requests. Negotiations usually ensue. Amazing how quick it was for UCH management to walk away, only to return to J Pos to craft a nifty little side deal.
Profit sharing was a negotiated benefit for the UAL to partially offset the pay losses we incurred in bankruptcy. Yes, you incurred a pay cut as well, but not like the haircut we took. You make how much more than us? Right.
Special,
If I haven't made it clear before, I respect the position of the UAL pilots in regards to how this profit sharing came about. That doesn't mean I agree with the view that is a violation of status quo, but I understand and respect it. I don't respect name calling and personal attacks though.
I know that the majority of UAL pilots are glad to see CAL pilots get profit sharing. I say the majority because I had at least one tell me that the CAL pilot group was stealing the UAL pilots' rightfully earned money.
Just playing devil's advocate here if I can. Status quo also involves the current CBAs as well. Since our contract has a grievance process to include how to settle those grievances, status quo (i.e. the use of the CBA language) allowed the CAL MEC to get profit sharing for the CAL pilots.
I for one want this JCBA done, done now and done correctly so that we can all move forward. I can't wait for Age 65 to kick in the fall so we finally get some movement at OUR NEW UAL company and hire new blood to fill our ranks. All of us have very similar goals and I hope some of these side issues don't deflect us from that finish line.
03-06-2012 | 02:36 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
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March 6
Dear United Pilots:
On Monday afternoon, the UAL-MEC Grievance Committee, in accordance with the Collective Bargaining Agreement covering United Pilots and pursuant to Section 17 of the Agreement, filed a grievance on behalf of all the United Councils. This grievance claims a violation of Section 3-L and Letter of Agreement 05-02 “when the company disbursed profit sharing on or about February 14, 2012, contrary to the negotiated terms and established past practice of the United Pilots Collective Bargaining Agreement.” Therein, ALPA is seeking that the company be ordered to determine the profit sharing entitlements to be paid to United Pilots for 2011 and subsequent years based on the current contractual language in the United Pilots’ CBA.
This grievance is related strictly to the company’s Document Plan for 2011 Profit Sharing which restructured the way employees were paid profit sharing but did not conform to the United Pilots’ CBA.
Additionally, the Grievance Committee today triggered the timeline under the dispute process of the Transition and Process Agreement (TPA) Section 12 stating that management violated Section 4-A of the TPA when it entered into bilateral negotiations and a purported agreement outside the scope of the TPA which states,
The Continental CBA and United CBA will remain in effect for the respective Airlines and Pilot groups in accordance with the RLA except as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement or by the JCBA, or except as an Airline Party or Airline Parties and ALPA otherwise agree with respect to their particular CRA. Until the effective date of the JCBA, each of Continental and United will continue to operate under their respective Pilot CBAs as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement and by other agreements that may be entered into by ALPA and one or more Airline Parties with respect to their particular CBA. Until the effective date of the JCBA, each of Continental and United will continue to operate under their respective Pilot CBAs as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement and by other agreements that may be entered into by ALPA and one or more Airline Parties with respect to their particular CBA. The Continental CBA and United CBA will remain in effect for the respective Airlines and Pilot groups in accordance with the RLA except as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement or by the JCBA, or except as an Airline Party or Airline Parties and ALPA otherwise agree with respect to their particular CBA.
Allow me to again emphasize that this grievance is over management’s process of bypassing trilateral negotiations that are prescribed in the TPA. This grievance is not about the Continental Pilots or their MEC or its leadership. It is management that erroneously completed bilateral negotiations over an item that should have been addressed only in proper trilateral negotiations, such as for a Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA) or for an extension of the TPA.
Both of these grievances will go through an expedited process and be heard by the System Board of Adjustment. Because they are open cases and involve outside legal counsel, no further details may be given prior to their hearings, but it was important for the United Pilots to know that they had been filed. We will keep you advised of their progress through the legal and grievance systems.
We are United
Chairman, United Master Executive Council
Dear United Pilots:
On Monday afternoon, the UAL-MEC Grievance Committee, in accordance with the Collective Bargaining Agreement covering United Pilots and pursuant to Section 17 of the Agreement, filed a grievance on behalf of all the United Councils. This grievance claims a violation of Section 3-L and Letter of Agreement 05-02 “when the company disbursed profit sharing on or about February 14, 2012, contrary to the negotiated terms and established past practice of the United Pilots Collective Bargaining Agreement.” Therein, ALPA is seeking that the company be ordered to determine the profit sharing entitlements to be paid to United Pilots for 2011 and subsequent years based on the current contractual language in the United Pilots’ CBA.
This grievance is related strictly to the company’s Document Plan for 2011 Profit Sharing which restructured the way employees were paid profit sharing but did not conform to the United Pilots’ CBA.
Additionally, the Grievance Committee today triggered the timeline under the dispute process of the Transition and Process Agreement (TPA) Section 12 stating that management violated Section 4-A of the TPA when it entered into bilateral negotiations and a purported agreement outside the scope of the TPA which states,
The Continental CBA and United CBA will remain in effect for the respective Airlines and Pilot groups in accordance with the RLA except as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement or by the JCBA, or except as an Airline Party or Airline Parties and ALPA otherwise agree with respect to their particular CRA. Until the effective date of the JCBA, each of Continental and United will continue to operate under their respective Pilot CBAs as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement and by other agreements that may be entered into by ALPA and one or more Airline Parties with respect to their particular CBA. Until the effective date of the JCBA, each of Continental and United will continue to operate under their respective Pilot CBAs as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement and by other agreements that may be entered into by ALPA and one or more Airline Parties with respect to their particular CBA. The Continental CBA and United CBA will remain in effect for the respective Airlines and Pilot groups in accordance with the RLA except as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement or by the JCBA, or except as an Airline Party or Airline Parties and ALPA otherwise agree with respect to their particular CBA.
Allow me to again emphasize that this grievance is over management’s process of bypassing trilateral negotiations that are prescribed in the TPA. This grievance is not about the Continental Pilots or their MEC or its leadership. It is management that erroneously completed bilateral negotiations over an item that should have been addressed only in proper trilateral negotiations, such as for a Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA) or for an extension of the TPA.
Both of these grievances will go through an expedited process and be heard by the System Board of Adjustment. Because they are open cases and involve outside legal counsel, no further details may be given prior to their hearings, but it was important for the United Pilots to know that they had been filed. We will keep you advised of their progress through the legal and grievance systems.
We are United
Chairman, United Master Executive Council
03-07-2012 | 01:53 PM
#73
Banned
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 690
Likes: 0
From: IAH 737 CA
March 6
Dear United Pilots:
On Monday afternoon, the UAL-MEC Grievance Committee, in accordance with the Collective Bargaining Agreement covering United Pilots and pursuant to Section 17 of the Agreement, filed a grievance on behalf of all the United Councils. This grievance claims a violation of Section 3-L and Letter of Agreement 05-02 “when the company disbursed profit sharing on or about February 14, 2012, contrary to the negotiated terms and established past practice of the United Pilots Collective Bargaining Agreement.” Therein, ALPA is seeking that the company be ordered to determine the profit sharing entitlements to be paid to United Pilots for 2011 and subsequent years based on the current contractual language in the United Pilots’ CBA.
This grievance is related strictly to the company’s Document Plan for 2011 Profit Sharing which restructured the way employees were paid profit sharing but did not conform to the United Pilots’ CBA.
Additionally, the Grievance Committee today triggered the timeline under the dispute process of the Transition and Process Agreement (TPA) Section 12 stating that management violated Section 4-A of the TPA when it entered into bilateral negotiations and a purported agreement outside the scope of the TPA which states,
The Continental CBA and United CBA will remain in effect for the respective Airlines and Pilot groups in accordance with the RLA except as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement or by the JCBA, or except as an Airline Party or Airline Parties and ALPA otherwise agree with respect to their particular CRA. Until the effective date of the JCBA, each of Continental and United will continue to operate under their respective Pilot CBAs as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement and by other agreements that may be entered into by ALPA and one or more Airline Parties with respect to their particular CBA. Until the effective date of the JCBA, each of Continental and United will continue to operate under their respective Pilot CBAs as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement and by other agreements that may be entered into by ALPA and one or more Airline Parties with respect to their particular CBA. The Continental CBA and United CBA will remain in effect for the respective Airlines and Pilot groups in accordance with the RLA except as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement or by the JCBA, or except as an Airline Party or Airline Parties and ALPA otherwise agree with respect to their particular CBA.
Allow me to again emphasize that this grievance is over management’s process of bypassing trilateral negotiations that are prescribed in the TPA. This grievance is not about the Continental Pilots or their MEC or its leadership. It is management that erroneously completed bilateral negotiations over an item that should have been addressed only in proper trilateral negotiations, such as for a Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA) or for an extension of the TPA.
Both of these grievances will go through an expedited process and be heard by the System Board of Adjustment. Because they are open cases and involve outside legal counsel, no further details may be given prior to their hearings, but it was important for the United Pilots to know that they had been filed. We will keep you advised of their progress through the legal and grievance systems.
We are United
Chairman, United Master Executive Council
Dear United Pilots:
On Monday afternoon, the UAL-MEC Grievance Committee, in accordance with the Collective Bargaining Agreement covering United Pilots and pursuant to Section 17 of the Agreement, filed a grievance on behalf of all the United Councils. This grievance claims a violation of Section 3-L and Letter of Agreement 05-02 “when the company disbursed profit sharing on or about February 14, 2012, contrary to the negotiated terms and established past practice of the United Pilots Collective Bargaining Agreement.” Therein, ALPA is seeking that the company be ordered to determine the profit sharing entitlements to be paid to United Pilots for 2011 and subsequent years based on the current contractual language in the United Pilots’ CBA.
This grievance is related strictly to the company’s Document Plan for 2011 Profit Sharing which restructured the way employees were paid profit sharing but did not conform to the United Pilots’ CBA.
Additionally, the Grievance Committee today triggered the timeline under the dispute process of the Transition and Process Agreement (TPA) Section 12 stating that management violated Section 4-A of the TPA when it entered into bilateral negotiations and a purported agreement outside the scope of the TPA which states,
The Continental CBA and United CBA will remain in effect for the respective Airlines and Pilot groups in accordance with the RLA except as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement or by the JCBA, or except as an Airline Party or Airline Parties and ALPA otherwise agree with respect to their particular CRA. Until the effective date of the JCBA, each of Continental and United will continue to operate under their respective Pilot CBAs as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement and by other agreements that may be entered into by ALPA and one or more Airline Parties with respect to their particular CBA. Until the effective date of the JCBA, each of Continental and United will continue to operate under their respective Pilot CBAs as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement and by other agreements that may be entered into by ALPA and one or more Airline Parties with respect to their particular CBA. The Continental CBA and United CBA will remain in effect for the respective Airlines and Pilot groups in accordance with the RLA except as modified by this Transition and Process Agreement or by the JCBA, or except as an Airline Party or Airline Parties and ALPA otherwise agree with respect to their particular CBA.
Allow me to again emphasize that this grievance is over management’s process of bypassing trilateral negotiations that are prescribed in the TPA. This grievance is not about the Continental Pilots or their MEC or its leadership. It is management that erroneously completed bilateral negotiations over an item that should have been addressed only in proper trilateral negotiations, such as for a Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA) or for an extension of the TPA.
Both of these grievances will go through an expedited process and be heard by the System Board of Adjustment. Because they are open cases and involve outside legal counsel, no further details may be given prior to their hearings, but it was important for the United Pilots to know that they had been filed. We will keep you advised of their progress through the legal and grievance systems.
We are United
Chairman, United Master Executive Council
Since it's a grievance, see if the UAL MEC can get the company to trade it for CAL pay rates.
03-07-2012 | 02:03 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 225
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03-08-2012 | 12:33 PM
#76
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 15
From: 737 CAPT
They aren't a prize at all, but it was your side of the pilot group that asked for that in the T&PA extension talks the first go around. So your MEC must see at least some value in an intermediate bump in pay.
03-08-2012 | 02:10 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2012
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The big value was in stopping the side deals and getting a JCBA. You side choose to go for a short term gain and caused us all to come away short. That deal has been beat to death on this forum. History! Without a JCBA the company will continue to pit the two groups against each other.
01-04-2013 | 07:20 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Likes: 0
Fourth "tranche" for LUAL pilots soon
Pull out your 2011 W2s. 4.983%* of it should be coming your way. Congrats!
United MEC Update 1/4/13
In January of 2012, the UAL MEC Grievance Committee filed a grievance against the Company for the violation of the United Collective Bargaining Agreement Section 3-L Profit Sharing. Concurrently, they filed a dispute against the Company for its violation of Section 4-A of the Transition and Process Agreement. Many queries have been received about the status of these issues and the Committee reports that both are still in process.
The CBA 3-L grievance was heard in May and July and we are currently awaiting closing arguments. The TPA Section 4-A dispute is progressing as well. The first step in that process was to obtain “joint ALPA position”. The UAL MEC held steadfast to its position and carefully guided the dispute through the TPA Section 12 dispute process.
After almost one year, we have received a “joint ALPA position” decision from the Neutral Arbitrator Josh Javits. Mr. Javits ruled that the position of the Association is that “the Company violated Section 4-A of the TPA by reaching a settlement agreement with the CAL MEC that was a change in the existing CAL Collective Bargaining Agreement.” The next step is a one day conference per 12-B of the TPA with the Company followed by arbitration. The conference is scheduled for next week.
After obtaining joint position, the CAL MEC offered to continue the remainder of the case on behalf of the United pilots. Although we appreciate their continued interest and assistance in reversing the harm done by the Company to the United pilots, the UAL MEC will continue the case with the assistance of ALPA National and our outside counsel. The two day hearing under Section 12-C is scheduled for later this month.
We anticipate concluding both cases within the next few months.
*
United MEC Update 1/4/13
In January of 2012, the UAL MEC Grievance Committee filed a grievance against the Company for the violation of the United Collective Bargaining Agreement Section 3-L Profit Sharing. Concurrently, they filed a dispute against the Company for its violation of Section 4-A of the Transition and Process Agreement. Many queries have been received about the status of these issues and the Committee reports that both are still in process.
The CBA 3-L grievance was heard in May and July and we are currently awaiting closing arguments. The TPA Section 4-A dispute is progressing as well. The first step in that process was to obtain “joint ALPA position”. The UAL MEC held steadfast to its position and carefully guided the dispute through the TPA Section 12 dispute process.
After almost one year, we have received a “joint ALPA position” decision from the Neutral Arbitrator Josh Javits. Mr. Javits ruled that the position of the Association is that “the Company violated Section 4-A of the TPA by reaching a settlement agreement with the CAL MEC that was a change in the existing CAL Collective Bargaining Agreement.” The next step is a one day conference per 12-B of the TPA with the Company followed by arbitration. The conference is scheduled for next week.
After obtaining joint position, the CAL MEC offered to continue the remainder of the case on behalf of the United pilots. Although we appreciate their continued interest and assistance in reversing the harm done by the Company to the United pilots, the UAL MEC will continue the case with the assistance of ALPA National and our outside counsel. The two day hearing under Section 12-C is scheduled for later this month.
We anticipate concluding both cases within the next few months.
*
Position Report (02/10/12)
Quote: Captain Jay Pierce
On another positive note, I received a letter from management this week detailing the computations for the profit sharing distribution our pilots will receive next week. We, of course, will have ALPA E&FA verify the accuracy of the information provided, but at first glance, it appears valid. The CAL pilots’ share of the Company-wide $245 million profit-sharing pool is $31 million; each CAL pilot will receive roughly 4.983% of their eligible 2011 earnings. As you know, our participation in the plan for 2011 was not a certainty until recently. That does not mean, in any way, that you did not earn this compensation. You most certainly did and I know you will put the money to good use. Whether you use it to make up for some of the shortfalls of our current contract or save for a rainy day, you earned every dime.
Quote: Captain Jay Pierce
On another positive note, I received a letter from management this week detailing the computations for the profit sharing distribution our pilots will receive next week. We, of course, will have ALPA E&FA verify the accuracy of the information provided, but at first glance, it appears valid. The CAL pilots’ share of the Company-wide $245 million profit-sharing pool is $31 million; each CAL pilot will receive roughly 4.983% of their eligible 2011 earnings. As you know, our participation in the plan for 2011 was not a certainty until recently. That does not mean, in any way, that you did not earn this compensation. You most certainly did and I know you will put the money to good use. Whether you use it to make up for some of the shortfalls of our current contract or save for a rainy day, you earned every dime.
Last edited by APC225; 01-04-2013 at 07:45 PM.
01-05-2013 | 06:33 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Likes: 0
UAL pilots were harmed and have to be made whole. It's either pay them what CAL pilots got or take it away from CAL pilots by incremental payroll deduction--starting just before the summer flying. As far as the "good luck," I'm not a LUAL pilot.
Last edited by APC225; 01-05-2013 at 07:03 AM.
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