Contract extension AIP bullet points
11-22-2015 | 01:38 PM
#161
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,091
Likes: 1
So for all you math guys talking about compounding interest and money lost over a career:
If I chase the G-Line up the Seniority list for the rest of my career because reserve blows and I chose NOT to be on it, how much money am I going to lose over my career by delaying WB FO until I hold a line NB CA then 756 CA the WB CA?
I submit that I wil lose more money over my career Chasing a line then I would voting NO now to fix reserve. If we could make reserve doable then we will all make more money for longer.
If I chase the G-Line up the Seniority list for the rest of my career because reserve blows and I chose NOT to be on it, how much money am I going to lose over my career by delaying WB FO until I hold a line NB CA then 756 CA the WB CA?
I submit that I wil lose more money over my career Chasing a line then I would voting NO now to fix reserve. If we could make reserve doable then we will all make more money for longer.
11-22-2015 | 01:50 PM
#162
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 3
From: 777
I think some of you are missing the big picture in how negotiations work. It is a well known principle that the party that makes the first offer is in the lower leverage position.
In this case the Company came to us, which they almost never do, so that is a big red flag that there is something they want so bad they don't want to wait 2 years to talk about it. That gives us way more leverage then in any sec-6. Think of it this way, say in 2yrs economy still good and there are record profits, the Company could easily say , "we are happy to just extend your contract the way it is. Oh, you want some changes, well what are you going to give us for them?"
The Nov20 letter said, "...we look for improvements without any offsets (concessions)"
Well, "reserve assignment process improvements" fit that bill exactly.
The Company side has to justify the deal to management in real dollars that any change will cost. Things like no FRMS relief cost real dollars. Pay raise is real dollars. But QOL issues for pilots can be had that don't cost any real dollars. The company doesn't care about QOL issues unless they cost money to them. But we have reserve process issues that can be "fixed" that don't cost any real money. So having the leverage in this negotiation is the opportune time to get some of them. Of course the company negotiators are not stupid, even if the thing we are asking for cost them zero dollars they are going to try to make us pay for it in some way. They could say, "well fine we will give you some reserve changes for only a 10% raise".
I think this is where our side missed the boat. They didn't fully use the leverage we have right now. They should have told the company, this stuff is all good but we have to have some changes in the reserve system, and we are very reasonable, we don't want anything that cost the company money.
example-
- limits to SC and FSBs per day, and let's look at the data that shows how many you actually use on average per day
-ability to drop and trade reserve days
( there are more that don't cost any real dollars)
Of course the company side will say, " well what are you going to give us for those things?"
That is where we should say, "nothing, they don't cost you any dollars, so put them in or go back to you boss and tell him you couldn't get a deal because you wouldn't give a few no cost items"
And it is total BS that they say there was no time left to talk about reserve rules. ***? is there a clock running and all talks have to be done before someone turns into a pumpkin?
My guess, our team went in mainly looking for a pay raise because that effects every pilot, the others issues only effect certain groups.
So the other items were put on the table to see what else we could get besides the pay raise. Once they saw the company put a bag of gold on the table they didn't push to hard for the other stuff.
In this case the Company came to us, which they almost never do, so that is a big red flag that there is something they want so bad they don't want to wait 2 years to talk about it. That gives us way more leverage then in any sec-6. Think of it this way, say in 2yrs economy still good and there are record profits, the Company could easily say , "we are happy to just extend your contract the way it is. Oh, you want some changes, well what are you going to give us for them?"
The Nov20 letter said, "...we look for improvements without any offsets (concessions)"
Well, "reserve assignment process improvements" fit that bill exactly.
The Company side has to justify the deal to management in real dollars that any change will cost. Things like no FRMS relief cost real dollars. Pay raise is real dollars. But QOL issues for pilots can be had that don't cost any real dollars. The company doesn't care about QOL issues unless they cost money to them. But we have reserve process issues that can be "fixed" that don't cost any real money. So having the leverage in this negotiation is the opportune time to get some of them. Of course the company negotiators are not stupid, even if the thing we are asking for cost them zero dollars they are going to try to make us pay for it in some way. They could say, "well fine we will give you some reserve changes for only a 10% raise".
I think this is where our side missed the boat. They didn't fully use the leverage we have right now. They should have told the company, this stuff is all good but we have to have some changes in the reserve system, and we are very reasonable, we don't want anything that cost the company money.
example-
- limits to SC and FSBs per day, and let's look at the data that shows how many you actually use on average per day
-ability to drop and trade reserve days
( there are more that don't cost any real dollars)
Of course the company side will say, " well what are you going to give us for those things?"
That is where we should say, "nothing, they don't cost you any dollars, so put them in or go back to you boss and tell him you couldn't get a deal because you wouldn't give a few no cost items"
And it is total BS that they say there was no time left to talk about reserve rules. ***? is there a clock running and all talks have to be done before someone turns into a pumpkin?
My guess, our team went in mainly looking for a pay raise because that effects every pilot, the others issues only effect certain groups.
So the other items were put on the table to see what else we could get besides the pay raise. Once they saw the company put a bag of gold on the table they didn't push to hard for the other stuff.
You all know my position, we would have been better off by opening early and fixing more of the contract. I do not think that throwing money at us, hoping we will overlook no QOL improvements, will fly.
For me, improvements to reserve are a requirement. Really speculation at this point, but if reserve is not improved, chances of me voting for it are not good. 13% pay is not worth missing my kids life.
11-22-2015 | 01:53 PM
#163
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,074
Likes: 1
From: The GF of FUPM
I know some guys that don't want to bid widebody F/O not because they are concerned about the reserve rules. As relatively senior narrow body F/Os that live near the airport, they are more concerned about the pay cut they will take getting nothing more than guarantee pay most of the year.
Not to mention the abuse habitually meted out by all the "Floyd's" in skeds.
11-22-2015 | 02:13 PM
#164
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
From: Airbus 320 Captain
So for all you math guys talking about compounding interest and money lost over a career:
If I chase the G-Line up the Seniority list for the rest of my career because reserve blows and I chose NOT to be on it, how much money am I going to lose over my career by delaying WB FO until I hold a line NB CA then 756 CA the WB CA?
If I chase the G-Line up the Seniority list for the rest of my career because reserve blows and I chose NOT to be on it, how much money am I going to lose over my career by delaying WB FO until I hold a line NB CA then 756 CA the WB CA?
Back in 2008, when I was a reserve Bus Captain in SFO, I received a call from some chucklehead that lived in Denver. He left a message on my answering machine that said, "I'm lining up for short call tomorrow and was hoping, since you live in the area, you'd pick it up." Needless to say, I didn't call him back. At the time, I had been displaced and was going backwards, back to the right seat. This chucklehead in Denver wasn't displaced .. he made the choice to commute to that seat and then expected others to pick up the short calls.
The point of all this : increased pay benefits everyone .. line holders and reserves, narrow body and wide body. Reserve improvements help .. reserves.
11-22-2015 | 02:14 PM
#165
Banned
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Maybe YOU should be more informed and less of an ass. Almost all 756 positions offered to new hires have gone to the most JR pilots in class. So there was no choice. Why? Because reserve sucks and now he's stuck on it while his class mates are line holders. Maybe he didn't want it and maybe he will bid off it in 2 years. So he has every right to want to fix his QOL.
So in a way you are ignorant for telling him to **** off because he chose the 756.
By the way who cares how bad it used to be. My grandfather used to ride a horse 20 miles to school. Does that mean anyone who complains that their car is a price of **** should **** off and go ride a horse? it's not the world we live in anymore. By the way what's a DC-10?????
So in a way you are ignorant for telling him to **** off because he chose the 756.
By the way who cares how bad it used to be. My grandfather used to ride a horse 20 miles to school. Does that mean anyone who complains that their car is a price of **** should **** off and go ride a horse? it's not the world we live in anymore. By the way what's a DC-10?????
wrongo great jet set breath
there was a choice. stay at your RJ
you hire in as a new hire in airlines, banking, law, any profession. you suck up the long hours and ****ty schedule in weekends.
you want me sitting ****ty reserve for my first ten years and then later you want to fix it ? you are the ass
11-22-2015 | 02:21 PM
#166
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,575
Likes: 176
From: 787
wrongo great jet set breath
there was a choice. stay at your RJ
you hire in as a new hire in airlines, banking, law, any profession. you suck up the long hours and ****ty schedule in weekends.
you want me sitting ****ty reserve for my first ten years and then later you want to fix it ? you are the ass
there was a choice. stay at your RJ
you hire in as a new hire in airlines, banking, law, any profession. you suck up the long hours and ****ty schedule in weekends.
you want me sitting ****ty reserve for my first ten years and then later you want to fix it ? you are the ass
Question: At what point am I no longer a new hire?
11-22-2015 | 02:31 PM
#167
Banned
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Maybe YOU should be more informed and less of an ass. Almost all 756 positions offered to new hires have gone to the most JR pilots in class. So there was no choice. Why? Because reserve sucks and now he's stuck on it while his class mates are line holders. Maybe he didn't want it and maybe he will bid off it in 2 years. So he has every right to want to fix his QOL.
So in a way you are ignorant for telling him to **** off because he chose the 756.
By the way who cares how bad it used to be. My grandfather used to ride a horse 20 miles to school. Does that mean anyone who complains that their car is a price of **** should **** off and go ride a horse? it's not the world we live in anymore. By the way what's a DC-10?????
So in a way you are ignorant for telling him to **** off because he chose the 756.
By the way who cares how bad it used to be. My grandfather used to ride a horse 20 miles to school. Does that mean anyone who complains that their car is a price of **** should **** off and go ride a horse? it's not the world we live in anymore. By the way what's a DC-10?????
11-22-2015 | 03:11 PM
#168
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
wrongo great jet set breath
there was a choice. stay at your RJ
you hire in as a new hire in airlines, banking, law, any profession. you suck up the long hours and ****ty schedule in weekends.
you want me sitting ****ty reserve for my first ten years and then later you want to fix it ? you are the ass
there was a choice. stay at your RJ
you hire in as a new hire in airlines, banking, law, any profession. you suck up the long hours and ****ty schedule in weekends.
you want me sitting ****ty reserve for my first ten years and then later you want to fix it ? you are the ass
11-22-2015 | 04:27 PM
#169
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
From: Airbus 320 Captain
No one here is advocating that, from what I can tell. A pay increase is a benefit to EVERYONE. If you're on reserve and earning min guarantee, a 15% raise is the equivalent of getting 84 hours in the previous pay scale. How is that not an improvement? Skip the VDO's, FDO's and voluntary short calls, get paid the equivalent of 84 hours instead of 73. Or, work your tail off, fly 85 hours, get paid the equivalent of flying 97.
11-22-2015 | 04:28 PM
#170
Banned
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
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