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Old 05-14-2018, 07:34 AM
  #3241  
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Originally Posted by Saltlife85 View Post
As a VX’r I gotta call you out on that one. Different animals? I think not. Make no mistake this management team and AS are very similar, they all are. DC and the rest screwed this pilot group over several times during my 6 years here. IPO comes to mind. And I disagree they came to the table willing to fix things and followed the “rule book”. Reserve rules come to mind, among many others. CSS/management was always interpreting things so that it benefited them. I agree with everything else you said .
Reserve was the only issue. Even then, there were a lot of pilots that even reserve was good to them. Once you held a line you were pretty much golden. CSS had a different play book. Once that was realized it was fixed. The big screw over didn’t really start until IPO. If they did us with the IPO right I’m not so sure the union drive would’ve been as successful.

We’re now dealing with a “regional” mentality. Like a said, 2 different animals. Yes, management will always look out for themselves first. In the end, DC was predictable. At least you knew what pile of dung you were gonna step in.
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Old 05-14-2018, 08:12 AM
  #3242  
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Originally Posted by MusicPilot View Post
What makes you think AS management will ever give up Scope? What makes you think they care about your career and to write language to protect it? They showed their true colors during arbitration, which I’m not sure why arbitration would ever be written in a contract. Yes, a lot of people chose to go to VX, but many really didn’t have a choice at the time. VX management was also a different breed than AS management.

Albeit only work rules, they were really good on following what was written and when there was a discrepancy they actually came to the table to try to come up with an agreement to fix it. Two totally different animals. Becoming AS wasn’t a choice for the VX pilots, but that’s how this industry works sometimes.

Now, we have to find a way to fix the holes in the current AS contract and it’s going to take all of us. Let’s just see how management tries to manipulate that.
How can you be certain, without a doubt, you would have gained an airtight scope clause in your first contract? You can’t. Not only don’t I THINK, AS doesn’t want to give up scope, I KNOW they don’t want to give up scope. We all know that. It really is going to come down to standing our ground. There will be people from both camps that will wear down as contract negotiations grind on. It won’t be a fun time. Look no further than JB. It’s been an exhausting couple of years for them and we’ll see what they were able to attain since they finally have an AIP. The whole, “I can’t believe you guys don’t have scope” speech, coming from guys that didn’t have scope, is total nonsense. We can both sit here and make up a million excuses as to who, what, where, why and when but at the end of the day, neither group had/has scope so neither group gets any soap box time. So, now what, I guess we both suck. Let’s not go down in history as the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked and work together towards something better.......TOGETHER
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:13 AM
  #3243  
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Originally Posted by Saltlife85 View Post
I agree.. focus on 2020 and getting solid scope and pay bumps, among other things. If were not acquired or merged before then.
2020 needs to be all QOL improvements no need to get sidetracked by small pay increases. Keep your eyes on the ball, a few bucks here or there would be a distraction. Scope, scheduling rewrite, work rules, etc.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:32 AM
  #3244  
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Originally Posted by Beta82 View Post
2020 needs to be all QOL improvements no need to get sidetracked by small pay increases. Keep your eyes on the ball, a few bucks here or there would be a distraction. Scope, scheduling rewrite, work rules, etc.
No 1 item in 2020 is to get rid of the retirement plan for “some” of our Pilots!
401k for all to level the playing field.
It’s expensive and benefits very few and should give us a great starting point😉
That alone should ‘fund’ several improvements the majority is looking for.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:39 AM
  #3245  
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This is a hiring thread. Stop forcing people to wade through your excrement to mine what little information there is on hiring.
 
Old 05-14-2018, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by DangleDunlops View Post
This is a hiring thread. Stop forcing people to wade through your excrement to mine what little information there is on hiring.
We’re not hiring. Is that better? Check back in 2019 😏
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by KnockKnock View Post
I wouldn’t say my calling out hypocrisy is a “reflexive need to be defensive”. You have 44 posts, all in “defense” of your views. Hmmmm, is this irony or more hypocrisy??? Either way, it is absolutely ridiculous for one group of pilots that volunteered to work for a company without scope, to stand on a soap box and chastise another pilot group that works for a company without any measurable scope. The shoulda, woulda, coulda argument holds no water. The facts remain, VX had no scope when it started and it had no scope 10 years later when it ceased to exist. You say, “but yeah, we were going to get some, I was sure of it!” You didn’t, end of story. Enough of the holier then thou sh!t. The only head scratcher is why you insist to continue an argument that is based on opinions only? The facts as they stand are neither group had/has scope. I could go into the laundry list of reasons why AS pilots of past decades didn’t think they needed scope and why guys like me came here confident, after talking with friends at the company, the revolution was at hand and scope, among other things, would be voted in, but that might be construed as making excuses. Biz, I think you’re an intelligent guy, you think things through before you write and you have valid points. On this though, you’re dead wrong and I’m basing this on the FACTS. Let’s leave this bloody pulp of a horse carcass to rest and move on so we can both look back and say, “remember when we didn’t have scope? That was dumb!”
"Defending" an argument is not necessarily being "defensive". I am confident that you are able to see the suttle but important distinction.

However many posts I have, they have not been all defensive. I have played the offensive, the defensive and sometimes I've just made an observation or expressed support for someone's opinion, so I do have to correct your assertion about my "44" posts...

I do notice that your strategy in quite a few of your posts is to "try" and rebut a person's argument and then express frustration about an issue being beaten to a bloody pulp, even though you were very much a part of said beating exercise... Very clever. If ever there was a definition for hypocrisy tho, that would be it..

I do and have given you props for some of your arguments on this board but the overarching condescension of VXers by you (and others) does at times detract from those good points and is what most VXers have been calling you guys out on.

Like I said in my previous post my friend, let's agree to disagree...
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:17 AM
  #3248  
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Originally Posted by MusicPilot View Post
We’re not hiring. Is that better? Check back in 2019 😏
Now this made me laugh. Unfortunate but funny.
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:21 AM
  #3249  
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Originally Posted by Wynncore View Post
Yes, you're right. However, remember that Alaska was this small and unique company that mostly operated in a small and unique area of the country for the majority of its existence. Really only in the last ten years (really six) has Alaska blossomed into the airline it is today. While I wholeheartedly agree with your point re: the lack of scope, I don't think that a lot of people envisioned that Alaska Airlines would become what it is today (at least this rapidly). I'm not giving ALPA a pass on this one, but historically it is true, AS never really "needed scope" as their "gentleman's agreement" with management always worked out in the favor of both the company and the pilot group.
Thanks for shedding some light on that "head scratcher". I can now empathize with them and their(our) reality...
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:37 AM
  #3250  
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Originally Posted by All Bizniz View Post
"Defending" an argument is not necessarily being "defensive". I am confident that you are able to see the suttle but important distinction.

However many posts I have, they have not been all defensive. I have played the offensive, the defensive and sometimes I've just made an observation or expressed support for someone's opinion, so I do have to correct your assertion about my "44" posts...

I do notice that your strategy in quite a few of your posts is to "try" and rebut a person's argument and then express frustration about an issue being beaten to a bloody pulp, even though you were very much a part of said beating exercise... Very clever. If ever there was a definition for hypocrisy tho, that would be it..

I do and have given you props for some of your arguments on this board but the overarching condescension of VXers by you (and others) does at times detract from those good points and is what most VXers have been calling you guys out on.

Like I said in my previous post my friend, let's agree to disagree...
For the sake of all who are reading this back and forth, I'll climb off the seesaw because it's going nowhere. The only thing I ask is you go back and read everything I've written in all threads and show me where I've been condescending. I've intentionally avoided that because I don't treat coworkers that way. I've only pointed out that BOTH groups have similar flaws and that no VX pilot can justifiably hold any moral high ground over any AS pilot. Nor do I think any AS pilot should act in kind. You're absolutely right about repeating the, "dead horse being beaten", line but guys keep trying to revive the damn horse and I have to yet again point out that the horse is DOA. This poor horse is looking like Frankenstein. If I could cheers a beer with you right now Biz I would.
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