100% this. I’ve been here for four years and APA is my first union as my previous airline was non-unionized. I don’t know any better which one is better than the other, but people like that guy who belittle others for not agreeing with their views makes me not want to vote at all. I really need to talk to my buddies at DL and UA to better educate myself because the aggressiveness of the pro-ALPA group only sways me not to vote or vote no. Call me ignorant all you want, I can’t know what I don’t know.

 

ALPA always seems to be about ALPA. To me it is an organization that is negotiating within a deep conflict of interest. Wherever ALPA gets the most money is where they will provide the most resources.

 

The argument for ALPA is that, structurally, it’s far easier to recall bad reps. Supposedly there are more checks and balances on union members bailing for management jobs. Better financial analysis/costing resources and negotiating attorneys/training for Section 6. Better member polling. The risk of a DFW rep using his personal agenda to create BS like “a non-vote counts as a no-vote” is minimized or eliminated. Then there’s the argument that ALPA leads the way with fighting Age 67, single pilot, TSA overreach, etc etc. Supposedly.

A move to ALPA won’t magically make this disinterested and disengaged pilot group suddenly more informed and unified. The same reps will likely run for MEC positions, it’ll just be easier to recall them if they suck.

No, your dues won’t “double”. It’s been stated multiple times that ALPA members don’t pay THAT much more in dues, and whatever new rate would likely be closer to APA’s current rate.

At worst, a move to ALPA seems like a break even. The upside is worth it to me. But I don’t think it’ll happen, because of our cluelessly content and disinterested pilot group.

 

Go have a look at one of the top threads in the UAL forum on this exact subject…

 

What ALPA doesn’t do is change the company’s behavior. We have all seen the company violate the contract. We are still waiting for the company to implement items in the contract- and we are about to start working on a new one. I don’t see AA as being scared of a new Union banner.

As for Union leadership behavior and supposed checks and balances to prevent things- “supposedly” isn’t facts. Human behavior is human behavior. If a union rep wants to go management, and the company wants them, unless it’s specifically in the C&B, can ALPA actually stop it?

as for dues, you are probably right that over all, at any given years end, the dues rate probably won’t be any different- but pilots are cheap- and the older they get, the cheaper they are- so if it means even one month of dues is higher than 1% outside of section 6, people are going to lose their minds.

With regard to the “Gustin Amendment” - that will still be in effect if there is a merger vote- and as far as I can tell- it’s only applicable to this scenario; none of our other voting counts non-votes as no votes. So yeah, maybe it will prevent something like this in the future- but it won’t get us there today.

Fighting age 67, etc. - there is also the argument that more unions being against it, the better. Yes, ALPA represents a lot of voices, but in DC, it’s one union.

Say the board does approve a merger vote- when do we get to hear from ALPA National on why we should vote them in and HOW they will fix the things that the pro-ALPA camp says is broken? Will there be multiple town halls from/with them where they present their case? Do they want us, if so, why (rhetorical). I won’t speak for others, but without hearing from ALPA National, I won’t vote for them.

 

Couple of points. To the latter, “nearly double” is misleading. ALPA has effectively had a 1.5% dues rate the last 2+ years due to refunds. And I think we would all expect a merger to come with a permanent dues reduction to something meaningfully less than that (a 20% swell in ranks/dues paying members means big efficiency). Once you figure in AA’s higher Sec 6 rate, It is reasonable to expect a merger would result in a pretty small dues difference to you over a contract cycle, if any at all. The devil in is the details there.

To the former point. keep in mind that Covid reset all the Legacy contract to be near-simultaneous negotiating. UA and AA both (thankfully) rejected their first sub-par deals, and DL came in with a *massive* improvement, that both UA and AA then copied, in many cases to the letter/penny. (UA ALPA’s table proposal, for example, was less than what DL achieved, which caused them to immediately withdraw their proposal). None of that is to rub anyone’s nose in anything. That’s just what happened - DL’s negotiating team individuals deserve the credit. Not as much the rank and file. Each pilot group still controls its own destiny/MEC, and has almost complete autonomy on their own ops. If a group elects weak Reps, weak results will still follow, regardless of the “letterhead”. I’d like to think a singular union would be a benefit for all of us

 

Here. Made it easy.

ALPA Volunteers Fleeing to Management

 

Disagree. AA absolutely owns APA at the negotiating table and they know it. How many times did we hear "we asked and they said no" when we had perhaps the greatest leverage as pilots in history? ALPA and the National Office is a different animal and I truly believe AA management is hoping we keep APA in place. They don't want us to have the backing of the national office next round of negotiations.

 

I don’t disagree with your statement that AA owns APA at the negotiating table. And I don’t disagree that ALPA has better negotiation support. I am not talking about that. I am talking about every day operations. There is absolutely zero evidence that AA management, scheduling, pick a department, will behave any different on day to day operations just because we are ALPA. I’m happy to be wrong.

 

I could be wrong here, but at least the Delta's contract has built-in penalties for violating the contract. We don't have that here. We have grieve it and wait forever.