Wiskey Driver

Ok you are getting confused again. Ripeness is not at issue, the court already ruled that the ripeness had in fact been reached but absent a LIST TO COMPARE there was nothing for which the court could do. I agree with the court in this regard. Now we are at a place where usapa has no choice but to advance a position, ie they must place a list or lists before APA and that is where it gets really interesting. There is simply no way around it and the stall game is over. Now I know you completely understand but you would rather not acknowledge that.

The dissent of the 9th is not material but since you brought it you must complete the statement. "How do we know what usapa will present and such will work against the fears of the west?" See they said the same thing, nothing to compare but now or rather very very soon usapa MUST present something for which to compare and when they do the west will file for an emergency injunction and grind the wheels of progress to a immediate halt. Do you think that APA will want to deal with this? Do you think that the APA will take up the usapa cause? I am betting not.

WD at AWA

PurpleTurtle

You see... The more you keep making claims that the Nic has to be used the more you would benefit from just providing one little simple document that stipulates anyone must use the Nic. Just one tiny little document.

Wiskey Driver

Ok its call the BINDING ARBITRATION DOCUMENT! This document had a stipulation that a contract needed to be present and the east decided against getting contract so as to not having honor our arbitration result. The court in fact two courts have stated there has been no list put forth by usapa to compare and like I said usapa has no choice now but to put forth a list or lists. I know you get it and your playing small is not at all enlightening.

Now your turn to show me where in the mou it states that west pilots abandon the nic results by signing this document. Come just one little sentence.

WD at AWA

PurpleTurtle

Very well. I am not familiar with that document. Did Marty post it on AOL for you. A link maybe... I have looked all over the Cactuspilot.org website and can't find the "BINDING ARBITRATION DOCUMENT"....

Maybe he needs another donation to put it on a link... maybe Ferggie and Koontz told him not to post it until the donations start flowing again...

Sweatsock

I don't think APA will want to have anything to do with the NIC and here is why:

The NIC list has 2005 hired west pilots senior to 1988 hired east pilots (Not furloughed)
The NIC has 2003 hired west pilots senior to 1987 hired east pilots (never furloughed)

The difference does not get under 10 years till you get to something like the 1985 hired east guys. Most of the not furloughed east list lost at least 8 years of longevity. These numbers do not contain the east pilots that were furloughed in 2005.

180 west pilots were placed above pre 1983 hired east pilots, America west did not fly their first revenue trip till 83

Junior east BUS Captains are 88 hires. All the west F/O's are senior to the 88 Captains per the NIC. That means that the 2005 hired f/o's will slot in as Captains on the list and end up senior to the 1993 hired AA junior md-80 Capt.

Cannot see them supporting your position for that one simple little fact.

Also the age issues:

There are about 1600 west pilots on NIC list. Of those 319 were not even out of high school when the east pilot one number junior to them per NIC was flying jets for this company.

The break down is as follows:

226 were still in high school (15 to 18 yrs old) when the east guy below them was hired at usair
93 were still in grade school (1st thru 8th grade)
14 were 11 years old
5 were 10 years old
7 were nine years old when the east guy one number junior to him was flying a dc-9 or 737 for this company.

Using the NIC list for the AA integration would most likely put EVERY one of those west F/O's senior to that 1993 hired AA MD-80 Capt.

I have the NIC list printed out, everytime I run across a pilot from another carrier that has questions regarding why the east did what it did I give them that list to look at. The reactions range from "Holy ###" to "Good Lord I had no idea, all I have ever heard was the west propaganda version"

So far every AA jumpseater has been floored by what a NIC would mean to them in the integration. The NIC list speaks for it's self, that is why the west posters never want to discuss what is actually on the NIC list...they are just interested talking about how the east has done everything they legally could to negate it.

Wiskey Driver

Well the jumpseat is really not the measuring stick for which decision are made even though pilots feel it is. Pilots think in pilot speak and never in real world business which is why most often we end up with average contracts with most sections missed other than compensation.

In the real world the business people do whats known as the risk vs reward analysis. The business people will weigh that and advise the APA of their options. " They will say things like gentleman, we can risk going to court in this deal but these are the very real outcomes associated with that decision." Does the reward out weigh the risk involved and if it does not then we should not do it.

I have only spoken with a number of APA pilots and in cases none have backed what you have just said. Now should I take those encounters as the gospel?

No entity ever wants to be named in a lawsuit especially when that entity was never part of the original action. The APA loses nothing by forcing that award but they risk being named in a law suit going by not doing it. The DFR is there already but will have a dollar amount attached to it just as with the TWA pilots that sued ALPA but usapa will fail to exist so that would leave the APA open to litigation and why do that?

One more thing, you made claims about 88 hires 83 hire when and where AWA pilots are placed on a list and YOU PERSONALLY CAN NOT SEE HOW APA WOULD SUPPORT THIS. I understand your position because you are biased toward that however I must ask as did the arbitrator Nic, where were these east pilots on their respective lists at the time of the decision?????? Those 88 hires were JR RES FIRST OFFICERS!!! The east feels and has always felt that they should be able to recoup their poor careers at the expense of the west and then the next merger comes along then it would be our turn. The east felt it would be ok to destroy the career expectations of pilots hired at AWA that were upgrading in 7yrs because the AWA pilots could recoup in the next merger. We are at the next merger is it the AWA pilots turn now?????
WD at AWA

lolwut

Looks to me like a bunch of east pilots had zero career potential and should've applied for and gotten a job at America West back in the day. They had plenty of opportunities.

Sweatsock

Your movement was based on growth, which Doug has said many times was at an end. AWA was close to BK it's self (Dougs words)

East movement was based on attrition, which growth had nothing to do with.

Had the west been willing to protect the east attrition we could have avoided removing ALPA from the property and years of this. But NIC saw fit to not only make the newhire west pilots senior to a not furloughed east guy that had been there 17 years, he also tried to give you the east attrition. The west had no measurable attrition to speak of, and to this day still does not. this years attrition is what? About 180 to 200 east guys retiring to about 15 to 20 west?

As it stands both sides has what it brought to the merger in 2005. There is some debate regarding the 190's. But You will not find east pilots that were on the list in 2005 debating that. The fact that the 190 is down to a 10 month Capt. is proof of that.

The only difference is that you were hired at a young airline and don't want to have to wait for your guys to retire to move up. You want your retirements and ours too. AA has their huge retirement push starting in a couple years. You want the NIC tossed in this one also so you can grab their attrition as well. It would be the perfect coup for the west 2003 hired AOL founders....slotted in with mid 80's east pilots and then slotted in with the late 80's to early 90's AA pilots. The epic seniority grab of all time.

A fence protecting attrition could have avoided all this. Had the age 65 not occurred almost half of the active east pilot group would have retired by now or in the next 2 years and the problem would be solved. As it stands the east is down to about 50% of the 2005 list (including the 500 furloughed that came back) by the end of the decade.

East guys are no threat to AA even if it went straight DOH which it wont. East has 800+ over 60 today. 50% of east active group (about 2900 active today including newhires) are gone by the time any reasonable fence will expire.

757HI

What are you people going to do after the SLI with AA is over?

Aren't you all sick of this yet?

This entire episode between east and west is nothing but a ****-stain on the industry.

The Drizzle

It will never be over for many of these guys.