American interviews and class dates
11-12-2017 | 07:21 AM
#5641
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Very few items in the contract affect all pilots. If I'm senior then I don't care about reserve rules, minimum day, domestic hotels, etc. why waste negotiating leverage on the 10% of junior reserves? Or if you are junior and above 50 why do you care about GIV pay or work rules? Many contract provisions deal with minority interests. The issue is whether or not AA pilots deserve an industry standard contract. LOS is industry standard. I think it's particularly irritating for an ex TWA pilot to hear a 30-something third lister hired 20 years later and senior complaining about LOS. Lots of the LOS pilots have been getting thrown under the bus for literally decades.
11-12-2017 | 01:24 PM
#5642
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 400
Likes: 0
Meaning date of hire = date of pay. AFAIK we are the only airline where your pay bump starts after training and not on your date of hire anniversary. With our lagging training dept, that means 3 months difference on average, which is around $15k lost for each new hire.
11-12-2017 | 01:26 PM
#5643
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 400
Likes: 0
Very few items in the contract affect all pilots. If I'm senior then I don't care about reserve rules, minimum day, domestic hotels, etc. why waste negotiating leverage on the 10% of junior reserves? Or if you are junior and above 50 why do you care about GIV pay or work rules? Many contract provisions deal with minority interests. The issue is whether or not AA pilots deserve an industry standard contract. LOS is industry standard. I think it's particularly irritating for an ex TWA pilot to hear a 30-something third lister hired 20 years later and senior complaining about LOS. Lots of the LOS pilots have been getting thrown under the bus for literally decades.
11-12-2017 | 03:41 PM
#5644
Gets Everyday Off
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,995
Likes: 1
From: Fully Retired
It was flying right up until the day it became AA branded. Most of the problem that drove TWA into the arms of AA was the corporate radar, Carl Icahn.
It was recovering and looked like it was going to make it (I was good friends with one of the chief financial guys, grew up two houses from him). Then Icahn came in, and he sold off all the Heathrow landing slots (and other profitable pieces) and paid the money to himself as primary shareholder, instead of reinvesting it. These cash cows were paying for fleet replacement and other improvements. His actions stopped that dead in its tracks.
Further, as part of his exit, he set up a complicated ticket structure so every profitable ticket on major routes was sold by Icahn doing business as TWA’s ticket reseller. He then paid the real TWA much less than what it cost to operate those flights. The higher load factor TWA had, the more money they lost and the more profits Icahn retained as a ticket reseller. If TWA reduced the number of flights to a city, they made more money and Icahn made less money. Consumers were paying fair ticket prices, which if went solely to the airline, would have shown a profit. With Icahn’s set up, it was impossible to show a profit. (Even if Spirit and Frontier were charging legacy fares, if they had Icahn, they could not have made money.)
Not to ask for sympathy (it is what it is), but the experienced finance people saw TWA was going to pull out of the dive and grow, if it were not for Icahn. He literally drove/forced TWA into the arms of AA, instead of reorganizing and continuing long term. At least, at that point, if it were to occur, an AA-TWA merger would have been of two equals, with both having similar leverage in negotiations.
Of course 9/11 did not help.
It was recovering and looked like it was going to make it (I was good friends with one of the chief financial guys, grew up two houses from him). Then Icahn came in, and he sold off all the Heathrow landing slots (and other profitable pieces) and paid the money to himself as primary shareholder, instead of reinvesting it. These cash cows were paying for fleet replacement and other improvements. His actions stopped that dead in its tracks.
Further, as part of his exit, he set up a complicated ticket structure so every profitable ticket on major routes was sold by Icahn doing business as TWA’s ticket reseller. He then paid the real TWA much less than what it cost to operate those flights. The higher load factor TWA had, the more money they lost and the more profits Icahn retained as a ticket reseller. If TWA reduced the number of flights to a city, they made more money and Icahn made less money. Consumers were paying fair ticket prices, which if went solely to the airline, would have shown a profit. With Icahn’s set up, it was impossible to show a profit. (Even if Spirit and Frontier were charging legacy fares, if they had Icahn, they could not have made money.)
Not to ask for sympathy (it is what it is), but the experienced finance people saw TWA was going to pull out of the dive and grow, if it were not for Icahn. He literally drove/forced TWA into the arms of AA, instead of reorganizing and continuing long term. At least, at that point, if it were to occur, an AA-TWA merger would have been of two equals, with both having similar leverage in negotiations.
Of course 9/11 did not help.
11-12-2017 | 03:51 PM
#5645
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,625
Likes: 0
It was flying right up until the day it became AA branded. Most of the problem that drove TWA into the arms of AA was the corporate radar, Carl Icahn.
It was recovering and looked like it was going to make it (I was good friends with one of the chief financial guys, grew up two houses from him). Then Icahn came in, and he sold off all the Heathrow landing slots (and other profitable pieces) and paid the money to himself as primary shareholder, instead of reinvesting it. These cash cows were paying for fleet replacement and other improvements. His actions stopped that dead in its tracks.
Further, as part of his exit, he set up a complicated ticket structure so every profitable ticket on major routes was sold by Icahn doing business as TWA’s ticket reseller. He then paid the real TWA much less than what it cost to operate those flights. The higher load factor TWA had, the more money they lost and the more profits Icahn retained as a ticket reseller. If TWA reduced the number of flights to a city, they made more money and Icahn made less money. Consumers were paying fair ticket prices, which if went solely to the airline, would have shown a profit. With Icahn’s set up, it was impossible to show a profit. (Even if Spirit and Frontier were charging legacy fares, if they had Icahn, they could not have made money.)
Not to ask for sympathy (it is what it is), but the experienced finance people saw TWA was going to pull out of the dive and grow, if it were not for Icahn. He literally drove/forced TWA into the arms of AA, instead of reorganizing and continuing long term. At least, at that point, if it were to occur, an AA-TWA merger would have been of two equals, with both having similar leverage in negotiations.
Of course 9/11 did not help.
It was recovering and looked like it was going to make it (I was good friends with one of the chief financial guys, grew up two houses from him). Then Icahn came in, and he sold off all the Heathrow landing slots (and other profitable pieces) and paid the money to himself as primary shareholder, instead of reinvesting it. These cash cows were paying for fleet replacement and other improvements. His actions stopped that dead in its tracks.
Further, as part of his exit, he set up a complicated ticket structure so every profitable ticket on major routes was sold by Icahn doing business as TWA’s ticket reseller. He then paid the real TWA much less than what it cost to operate those flights. The higher load factor TWA had, the more money they lost and the more profits Icahn retained as a ticket reseller. If TWA reduced the number of flights to a city, they made more money and Icahn made less money. Consumers were paying fair ticket prices, which if went solely to the airline, would have shown a profit. With Icahn’s set up, it was impossible to show a profit. (Even if Spirit and Frontier were charging legacy fares, if they had Icahn, they could not have made money.)
Not to ask for sympathy (it is what it is), but the experienced finance people saw TWA was going to pull out of the dive and grow, if it were not for Icahn. He literally drove/forced TWA into the arms of AA, instead of reorganizing and continuing long term. At least, at that point, if it were to occur, an AA-TWA merger would have been of two equals, with both having similar leverage in negotiations.
Of course 9/11 did not help.
11-12-2017 | 04:02 PM
#5646
Gets Everyday Off
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,995
Likes: 1
From: Fully Retired
He bought the majority share of the company. A majority vote of shareholders (him) can vote to sell anything and any part of the company. That is not against the law.
After all, if he had voted his majority shares to sell all the planes and start selling turnips as the sole business of TWA, he would have been legally permitted to do it.
He did have to do some fancy footwork to avoid the “self-dealing” laws for the ticketing arrangement.
Almost every TWA employee has a visceral hate for Icahn, even to this day.
If you talk to the former TWA employees (both current AA and retirees) you will find a tremendous sense of pride as it (and Pan Am) were the face of the United States passenger aviation around the world.
But hey, it is what it is, current employees move on. Suck it up, too much of an adult to be a snowflake.
After all, if he had voted his majority shares to sell all the planes and start selling turnips as the sole business of TWA, he would have been legally permitted to do it.
He did have to do some fancy footwork to avoid the “self-dealing” laws for the ticketing arrangement.
Almost every TWA employee has a visceral hate for Icahn, even to this day.
If you talk to the former TWA employees (both current AA and retirees) you will find a tremendous sense of pride as it (and Pan Am) were the face of the United States passenger aviation around the world.
But hey, it is what it is, current employees move on. Suck it up, too much of an adult to be a snowflake.
11-12-2017 | 04:10 PM
#5647
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,625
Likes: 0
He bought the majority share of the company. A majority vote of shareholders (him) can vote to sell anything and any part of the company. That is not against the law.
After all, if he had voted his majority shares to sell all the planes and start selling turnips as the sole business of TWA, he would have been legally permitted to do it.
He did have to do some fancy footwork to avoid the “self-dealing” laws for the ticketing arrangement.
Almost every TWA employee has a visceral hate for Icahn, even to this day.
If you talk to the former TWA employees (both current AA and retirees) you will find a tremendous sense of pride as it (and Pan Am) were the face of the United States passenger aviation around the world.
But hey, it is what it is, current employees move on. Suck it up, too much of an adult to be a snowflake.
After all, if he had voted his majority shares to sell all the planes and start selling turnips as the sole business of TWA, he would have been legally permitted to do it.
He did have to do some fancy footwork to avoid the “self-dealing” laws for the ticketing arrangement.
Almost every TWA employee has a visceral hate for Icahn, even to this day.
If you talk to the former TWA employees (both current AA and retirees) you will find a tremendous sense of pride as it (and Pan Am) were the face of the United States passenger aviation around the world.
But hey, it is what it is, current employees move on. Suck it up, too much of an adult to be a snowflake.
11-12-2017 | 04:35 PM
#5648
Gets Everyday Off
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,995
Likes: 1
From: Fully Retired
If you ever are in Kansas City and have time on your hands, there are two museums I can recommend, at the old MKC, downtown airport (like landing and taking off in a teacup. Cliffs a mile north of the runway, skyscrapers of downtown a mile south of the runway. In 1972 they moved all commercial flights to MCI, 12 miles to the north. Now nothing but fields on the long approaches.)
There is a TWA museum and an old aircraft museum. My favorite there is a Super Connie. You can go in and look around. All restored by TWA retirees.
I can also recommend the nations only WWI museum at the Liberty Memorial spire/eternal flame and the Country Club Plaza shopping area Christmas lights (Thanksgiving to New Year’s).
And yes, I grew up there.
11-13-2017 | 12:28 PM
#5650
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,625
Likes: 0
I think it evaporated. Left in the contrails someplace. (Likely AA still owns it on paper to avoid someone restarting a ‘new’ TWA, a la Frontier and Eastern.)
If you ever are in Kansas City and have time on your hands, there are two museums I can recommend, at the old MKC, downtown airport (like landing and taking off in a teacup. Cliffs a mile north of the runway, skyscrapers of downtown a mile south of the runway. In 1972 they moved all commercial flights to MCI, 12 miles to the north. Now nothing but fields on the long approaches.)
There is a TWA museum and an old aircraft museum. My favorite there is a Super Connie. You can go in and look around. All restored by TWA retirees.
I can also recommend the nations only WWI museum at the Liberty Memorial spire/eternal flame and the Country Club Plaza shopping area Christmas lights (Thanksgiving to New Year’s).
And yes, I grew up there.
If you ever are in Kansas City and have time on your hands, there are two museums I can recommend, at the old MKC, downtown airport (like landing and taking off in a teacup. Cliffs a mile north of the runway, skyscrapers of downtown a mile south of the runway. In 1972 they moved all commercial flights to MCI, 12 miles to the north. Now nothing but fields on the long approaches.)
There is a TWA museum and an old aircraft museum. My favorite there is a Super Connie. You can go in and look around. All restored by TWA retirees.
I can also recommend the nations only WWI museum at the Liberty Memorial spire/eternal flame and the Country Club Plaza shopping area Christmas lights (Thanksgiving to New Year’s).
And yes, I grew up there.
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