JCBA timeline extension
11-18-2014 | 05:07 PM
#431
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It takes years to get a pilot in the pipeline to 121 standards (not to mention serious money) and the college programs can only support perhaps 25-50% annual requirement right now. In a few years as the legacy retirements kick-in, that percentage will drop further. Right now, college pilots get a break down to 1000 hours and going back to 250 wouldn't happen anyway. It's too late for the regionals as it will take years to fix that problem and there's a catch-22.
In order to truly solve that problem, they'd have to raise pay SUBSTANTIALLY and that only aggravates the regionals unprofitability. Instead. Parker may think he'll just offer a "cradle-to-grave" path for pilots to get them to the right seat of that RJ, but what the message that pilots are seeing from Parker ?
That he doesn't play fair. At Envoy and others he's whipsawing them down in a race to the bottom, so pay at the regional level is getting worse, not better. Who is going to come to an Eagle carrier on any promises from this guy when the compensation and treatment is worse then it's ever been ?
I certainly wouldn't and APA should offer ZERO assistance with any schemes he's looking to generate. Delta and United see the future and are reinforcing more mainline ops, yet Parker wants MORE RJ 's ?
Please.
He doesn't need more RJ's and never did. That was just a removable barging chip to grease a long-term section 6 agreement without dealing with section 6.My local airports FBO used to have aspiring young pilots and the pattern has been dead on sunny calm weekends for a couple of years now. My contacts at my old college say the program is doing well, but all the college programs combined will only produce a fraction of the annually required pilots. Back in the day, pilots needed 1200-1500 and 200 multi to even have a chance at most commuters flying metros or Beech 99's and 2000/500 to really be competitive. There was no shortage then.
11-18-2014 | 05:33 PM
#432
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Parker has more personalities than Sibyl and don't think for one minute that what is happening at envoy is the exception. Could easily be you in his sites next.
Take the emotion out and the moral indignation and SUPPORT YOUR BOD to get the best deal.
Take the emotion out and the moral indignation and SUPPORT YOUR BOD to get the best deal.
11-18-2014 | 05:37 PM
#433
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It seems many of the East guys need to hear that. Considering their long tenure with "Sybil", you'd think they'd already would know it. I don't see very much support from that direction.
11-18-2014 | 05:48 PM
#434
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It's 15% into a DC plan. We had 2 plans and one was 2% and the other 13%. They have been merged into one plan. There is a 3% raise on 1 Jan. The profit sharing is also pensionable and paid the 15% unlike UAL. They get 16 but profit sharing is not pensionable. At this years profit sharing it will mean an effective rate just above 17%.
11-18-2014 | 06:10 PM
#435
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 61
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From: Seeking one
So I am still lost on some of the thinking here and elsewhere:
Scope is now off the table (per AAL this afternoon) and the only thing we have to debate is a pay raise?? Nothing else is being offered or left on the table because it is not open for discussion at this time so why the bickering for things that are not open for discussion?
Pay raise now or delay it 1+ years and wait until 2018 when contract negotiations reopen and then start talking about all the things we were not able to talk about right now because that is not open for discussion.
Go path of Flight Attendants and turn down the pay raises now then complain about it later (aka the next day) or accept the offer with no other strings attached other than an improved pay scale (which is the only thing open for discussion at this time)??? Seems simple enough to me, am I missing something?
Scope is now off the table (per AAL this afternoon) and the only thing we have to debate is a pay raise?? Nothing else is being offered or left on the table because it is not open for discussion at this time so why the bickering for things that are not open for discussion?
Pay raise now or delay it 1+ years and wait until 2018 when contract negotiations reopen and then start talking about all the things we were not able to talk about right now because that is not open for discussion.
Go path of Flight Attendants and turn down the pay raises now then complain about it later (aka the next day) or accept the offer with no other strings attached other than an improved pay scale (which is the only thing open for discussion at this time)??? Seems simple enough to me, am I missing something?
11-18-2014 | 06:22 PM
#436
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,208
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From: B737
Regarding the pay raise...I ran some numbers.
I used Delta and United pay scales and their contractual pay raises to compare what we'd get with the MOU pay parity review in 2016. I ran one scenario assuming Delta's 2016 raise would be 5% and another assuming they didn't get their ducks in a row and there was no "new Delta contract" come January 1, 2016. Then I ran the numbers using the proposed Delta +3%, and the ensuing 3% annual bumps.
According to what I came up with, Delta will need to receive an 11.9% pay increase on January 1, 2016 in order for us to EQUAL what we'd be paid under the current proposal. So no, there likely won't be a "bigger raise" under the MOU unless DALPA pulls off some magic.
I truly do believe that Delta pilots will see a 15-20% raise, but it will be phased in over the course of the contract, not in one huge raise in 2016. That leaves us lagging if we go to arbitration.
Clearly there are other issues at stake here regarding the proposals the company has put forth and changes to the amenable date, etc. But I wanted to put that out there to dispel the notion that if we just go to arbitration, we'll still wind up ahead in 2016 with a new Delta contract. There's still a chance that could happen, but unless Delta gets a 14-15% raise in 2016, it's unlikely we'd wind up very far ahead if we throw up our hands and go to arbitration.
I personally feel if we can fix some of the language proposed by the company (two hours driving time versus a two hour callout, etc) and return us to the original amenable date, I think the DAL+3% is about as good as we're going to get at this point since the MOU essentially removes any real bargaining leverage we would have had.
I used Delta and United pay scales and their contractual pay raises to compare what we'd get with the MOU pay parity review in 2016. I ran one scenario assuming Delta's 2016 raise would be 5% and another assuming they didn't get their ducks in a row and there was no "new Delta contract" come January 1, 2016. Then I ran the numbers using the proposed Delta +3%, and the ensuing 3% annual bumps.
According to what I came up with, Delta will need to receive an 11.9% pay increase on January 1, 2016 in order for us to EQUAL what we'd be paid under the current proposal. So no, there likely won't be a "bigger raise" under the MOU unless DALPA pulls off some magic.
I truly do believe that Delta pilots will see a 15-20% raise, but it will be phased in over the course of the contract, not in one huge raise in 2016. That leaves us lagging if we go to arbitration.
Clearly there are other issues at stake here regarding the proposals the company has put forth and changes to the amenable date, etc. But I wanted to put that out there to dispel the notion that if we just go to arbitration, we'll still wind up ahead in 2016 with a new Delta contract. There's still a chance that could happen, but unless Delta gets a 14-15% raise in 2016, it's unlikely we'd wind up very far ahead if we throw up our hands and go to arbitration.
I personally feel if we can fix some of the language proposed by the company (two hours driving time versus a two hour callout, etc) and return us to the original amenable date, I think the DAL+3% is about as good as we're going to get at this point since the MOU essentially removes any real bargaining leverage we would have had.
11-18-2014 | 06:26 PM
#437
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Joined: Nov 2014
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I'm still very confused on this whole "burn the house" mentality.
Either we get a deal done here or we go to arbitration.
If we go to arbitration, everyone pretty much knows what the outcome is.
The issue with the companies proposal is scope. There are some minor small things they also want, like night currency slots, which IMO would be a good use of that sim slot rather than have it go unused, and in comparison we get a fairly large raise NOW. This amounts to tens of thousands of dollars for the senior folks, and not an insignificant amount for the junior guys.
It sounds like the APA is approaching this like normal negotiations, when in fact it's not. Just like the FA's, if the company says no dice or we say no dice, we go back to what was originally agreed to. Not a bad deal, but assuming scope is a moot point in the offer I'm just not seeing how what we are getting is bad. We are not in section 6 negotiations now, we don't have any legal power to strike if we don't get what we want.
Either we get a deal done here or we go to arbitration.
If we go to arbitration, everyone pretty much knows what the outcome is.
The issue with the companies proposal is scope. There are some minor small things they also want, like night currency slots, which IMO would be a good use of that sim slot rather than have it go unused, and in comparison we get a fairly large raise NOW. This amounts to tens of thousands of dollars for the senior folks, and not an insignificant amount for the junior guys.
It sounds like the APA is approaching this like normal negotiations, when in fact it's not. Just like the FA's, if the company says no dice or we say no dice, we go back to what was originally agreed to. Not a bad deal, but assuming scope is a moot point in the offer I'm just not seeing how what we are getting is bad. We are not in section 6 negotiations now, we don't have any legal power to strike if we don't get what we want.
Parker would rather get a vote and be able to make some sort of positive PR announcement. However, he will be just fine with arbitration and he is not in the least worried about how unhappy the employees are. Sure, it would be great if it didn't cost much. The $$$ amount, that employee happiness is worth to Parker is very low - not zero, but very low. APA can threaten and even follow though with the threats and in the end- somewhere down the road, Parker might regret what he is doing now. But that day is sometime well into the future. Parker has nothing to work with in his management repertoire other than this dance. Union buster Glass is here to be his choreographer. The best thing that we can do for ourselves is understand exactly what the MOU spells out. I hope that we get some good advice on this so that I can make a prudent decision this time when I vote.
It's troubling to hear people talk about fairness and how much the company is making when it comes to Parker. Parker will pay exactly what he is forced to pay in writing - plus a little to save him from the aggravation of so may ****ed off employees and a bit of good PR. I don't think arbitrators are going to look at what the company is making and how unfair it is to labor. I think that they will arbitrate what the parties agreed to in the MOU. If I am wrong about what happens in arbitration OR what is in the MOU, PLEASE correct me.
Personally, I think expecting large increases in this round is futile. You have to be able to look from the other side as well - if they don't like it, they can just say no and we get what we've already got.
If the APA fails to come to an agreement, would you be happy with the result? Because that is where we are heading.
Personally, I'd rather have the increases now, as long as scope is off the table.
Your issue, the work rules, are something that is most likely well outside of the discussions taking place now. That is for 2019. Unfortunately.
The APA contract has always been weak in the soft pay category, America West had good soft pay but bad overall pay, as did US, after the two bankruptcies. It's amazing to me that many commuters have better language than AA's contract. I could credit 150 hours at my old commuter without hardly trying.
Hopefully the company can take the money they are making and position us for a good long term future. Hopefully they don't blow it on things like stock buy backs and uniform parties (oh wait...).
If the APA fails to come to an agreement, would you be happy with the result? Because that is where we are heading.
Personally, I'd rather have the increases now, as long as scope is off the table.
Your issue, the work rules, are something that is most likely well outside of the discussions taking place now. That is for 2019. Unfortunately.
The APA contract has always been weak in the soft pay category, America West had good soft pay but bad overall pay, as did US, after the two bankruptcies. It's amazing to me that many commuters have better language than AA's contract. I could credit 150 hours at my old commuter without hardly trying.
Hopefully the company can take the money they are making and position us for a good long term future. Hopefully they don't blow it on things like stock buy backs and uniform parties (oh wait...).
Welcome aboard. Don't worry........there's a decent chance you wont have to worry about it. REMEMBER, health care is a variable (that's exploding UPWARD right now) and pay rates are fixed. Arbitration will mean it will get pushed aside, because if they want it, they'll have to PAY US for it (which should be computed on a variable scale to compensate for changes). We have to make sure its TRUE valuation is considered. That alone could mean substantial increases in pay rates to maintain "cost-neutral".
I wonder if they asked for all their initial proposal wants, how much our rates would REALLY have to change upwards to maintain cost-neutral ?
Again, I'm starting to warm to the idea of just taking the MOU/MTA pay adjustment with no alterations to present benefits and work rules in arbitration, hold my nose (among other things) and let Parker make a go out of a larger version of the old AA.
Any reserve pilots out there ?
* we all will likely be at some point.
Is it worth another $10/hour to adjust your life to a two hour callout ?
How much does a crash pad, more out-of-pocket hotels (or move) cost ?
What if you live in base and it closes in a couple of years (heads up, westies)
Is quality of life more important then a few extra bucks ?
How about 10-15% less in pay, but you don't have a health care Sword of Damocles over your head (and your wallet) ?
Is that trade-off acceptable ?
Point is, there's a lot of questions about this and quite frankly I AGREE with Doug Parker in that arbitration ISN'T necessarily a bad thing for us. We also get predictability and won't needlessly have to give up as many things for Delta rates when correct valuation is factored in. ALL his initial contract wants I'm sure cannot be achieved in arbitration without busting a cost-neutral benchmark at even the initial proposals pay rate structure. His other error is that it wont cost him anything, but it will. It will cost him what he supposedly didn't want.....truly a "new" American Airlines. If he doesn't want that (he may not now, but he will later).
If Parker's not afraid of arbitration, neither should we be.
I wonder if they asked for all their initial proposal wants, how much our rates would REALLY have to change upwards to maintain cost-neutral ?
Again, I'm starting to warm to the idea of just taking the MOU/MTA pay adjustment with no alterations to present benefits and work rules in arbitration, hold my nose (among other things) and let Parker make a go out of a larger version of the old AA.
Any reserve pilots out there ?
* we all will likely be at some point.
Is it worth another $10/hour to adjust your life to a two hour callout ?
How much does a crash pad, more out-of-pocket hotels (or move) cost ?
What if you live in base and it closes in a couple of years (heads up, westies)
Is quality of life more important then a few extra bucks ?
How about 10-15% less in pay, but you don't have a health care Sword of Damocles over your head (and your wallet) ?
Is that trade-off acceptable ?
Point is, there's a lot of questions about this and quite frankly I AGREE with Doug Parker in that arbitration ISN'T necessarily a bad thing for us. We also get predictability and won't needlessly have to give up as many things for Delta rates when correct valuation is factored in. ALL his initial contract wants I'm sure cannot be achieved in arbitration without busting a cost-neutral benchmark at even the initial proposals pay rate structure. His other error is that it wont cost him anything, but it will. It will cost him what he supposedly didn't want.....truly a "new" American Airlines. If he doesn't want that (he may not now, but he will later).
If Parker's not afraid of arbitration, neither should we be.
75% raise for year 1 pay ($40 to $70.13)
Group II Pay:
Dec 2014=18% increase
Jan 2015= +3%
Jan 2016= +3%
Jan 2017= +3%
Jan 2018= +3%
Jan 2019= +3% (1 year past current MOU/CBA amendable date)
Company following 8 items: (With SCOPE off the table its now 7)
1. Overnight sim sessions for "LANDING CURRENCY" (I presume ONLY if you are NOT CURRENT like 3 TO and Landings. Did this years ago in aircraft. No big deal.)
2. Short call reserve report (I'm short call....no big deal.)
3. Combine International and Domestic Divisions (Makes sense actually,scheduling efficiency)
4. Eliminate HBT exception (because of the combination of divisions, scheduling efficiency)
5. Vacancy Bids/Hold from training (cuts training float and provides equipment training flexibility)
6. Benefits Excise tax (too soon to really get upset about this)
7. Amendable date extended to 1/1/2020 (one year) and LOA 13-01 to 12/31/2019.
Also agrees to 10 current TA's (for JCBA) and 18 individual TA's.
In short, the Company gets us ALL expedited settlement in JCBA, big pay raises and little asked in return.
Now that scope is OFF the table all the APA HAS to do is agree with the company in principle EXCEPT tweaking some of the aforementioned items one way or another and submit it to the rank and file.
It will pass.
11-18-2014 | 06:30 PM
#438
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
So I am still lost on some of the thinking here and elsewhere:
Scope is now off the table (per AAL this afternoon) and the only thing we have to debate is a pay raise?? Nothing else is being offered or left on the table because it is not open for discussion at this time so why the bickering for things that are not open for discussion?
Pay raise now or delay it 1+ years and wait until 2018 when contract negotiations reopen and then start talking about all the things we were not able to talk about right now because that is not open for discussion.
Go path of Flight Attendants and turn down the pay raises now then complain about it later (aka the next day) or accept the offer with no other strings attached other than an improved pay scale (which is the only thing open for discussion at this time)??? Seems simple enough to me, am I missing something?
Scope is now off the table (per AAL this afternoon) and the only thing we have to debate is a pay raise?? Nothing else is being offered or left on the table because it is not open for discussion at this time so why the bickering for things that are not open for discussion?
Pay raise now or delay it 1+ years and wait until 2018 when contract negotiations reopen and then start talking about all the things we were not able to talk about right now because that is not open for discussion.
Go path of Flight Attendants and turn down the pay raises now then complain about it later (aka the next day) or accept the offer with no other strings attached other than an improved pay scale (which is the only thing open for discussion at this time)??? Seems simple enough to me, am I missing something?
Regarding the pay raise...I ran some numbers.
I used Delta and United pay scales and their contractual pay raises to compare what we'd get with the MOU pay parity review in 2016. I ran one scenario assuming Delta's 2016 raise would be 5% and another assuming they didn't get their ducks in a row and there was no "new Delta contract" come January 1, 2016. Then I ran the numbers using the proposed Delta +3%, and the ensuing 3% annual bumps.
According to what I came up with, Delta will need to receive an 11.9% pay increase on January 1, 2016 in order for us to EQUAL what we'd be paid under the current proposal. So no, there likely won't be a "bigger raise" under the MOU unless DALPA pulls off some magic.
I truly do believe that Delta pilots will see a 15-20% raise, but it will be phased in over the course of the contract, not in one huge raise in 2016. That leaves us lagging if we go to arbitration.
Clearly there are other issues at stake here regarding the proposals the company has put forth and changes to the amenable date, etc. But I wanted to put that out there to dispel the notion that if we just go to arbitration, we'll still wind up ahead in 2016 with a new Delta contract. There's still a chance that could happen, but unless Delta gets a 14-15% raise in 2016, it's unlikely we'd wind up very far ahead if we throw up our hands and go to arbitration.
I personally feel if we can fix some of the language proposed by the company (two hours driving time versus a two hour callout, etc) and return us to the original amenable date, I think the DAL+3% is about as good as we're going to get at this point since the MOU essentially removes any real bargaining leverage we would have had.
I used Delta and United pay scales and their contractual pay raises to compare what we'd get with the MOU pay parity review in 2016. I ran one scenario assuming Delta's 2016 raise would be 5% and another assuming they didn't get their ducks in a row and there was no "new Delta contract" come January 1, 2016. Then I ran the numbers using the proposed Delta +3%, and the ensuing 3% annual bumps.
According to what I came up with, Delta will need to receive an 11.9% pay increase on January 1, 2016 in order for us to EQUAL what we'd be paid under the current proposal. So no, there likely won't be a "bigger raise" under the MOU unless DALPA pulls off some magic.
I truly do believe that Delta pilots will see a 15-20% raise, but it will be phased in over the course of the contract, not in one huge raise in 2016. That leaves us lagging if we go to arbitration.
Clearly there are other issues at stake here regarding the proposals the company has put forth and changes to the amenable date, etc. But I wanted to put that out there to dispel the notion that if we just go to arbitration, we'll still wind up ahead in 2016 with a new Delta contract. There's still a chance that could happen, but unless Delta gets a 14-15% raise in 2016, it's unlikely we'd wind up very far ahead if we throw up our hands and go to arbitration.
I personally feel if we can fix some of the language proposed by the company (two hours driving time versus a two hour callout, etc) and return us to the original amenable date, I think the DAL+3% is about as good as we're going to get at this point since the MOU essentially removes any real bargaining leverage we would have had.
Who do you two think you are....Jerry Glass?
11-18-2014 | 06:32 PM
#439
Banned
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 442
Likes: 0
From: A320 F/O
FACTS TO GO BY - APA presentation:
75% raise for year 1 pay ($40 to $70.13)
Group II Pay:
Dec 2014=18% increase
Jan 2015= +3%
Jan 2016= +3%
Jan 2017= +3%
Jan 2018= +3%
Jan 2019= +3% (1 year past current MOU/CBA amendable date)
Company following 8 items: (With SCOPE off the table its now 7)
1. Overnight sim sessions for "LANDING CURRENCY" (I presume ONLY if you are NOT CURRENT like 3 TO and Landings. Did this years ago in aircraft. No big deal.)
2. Short call reserve report (I'm short call....no big deal.)
3. Combine International and Domestic Divisions (Makes sense actually,scheduling efficiency)
4. Eliminate HBT exception (because of the combination of divisions, scheduling efficiency)
5. Vacancy Bids/Hold from training (cuts training float and provides equipment training flexibility)
6. Benefits Excise tax (too soon to really get upset about this)
7. Amendable date extended to 1/1/2020 (one year) and LOA 13-01 to 12/31/2019.
Also agrees to 10 current TA's (for JCBA) and 18 individual TA's.
In short, the Company gets us ALL expedited settlement in JCBA, big pay raises and little asked in return.
Now that scope is OFF the table all the APA HAS to do is agree with the company in principle EXCEPT tweaking some of the aforementioned items one way or another and submit it to the rank and file.
It will pass.
75% raise for year 1 pay ($40 to $70.13)
Group II Pay:
Dec 2014=18% increase
Jan 2015= +3%
Jan 2016= +3%
Jan 2017= +3%
Jan 2018= +3%
Jan 2019= +3% (1 year past current MOU/CBA amendable date)
Company following 8 items: (With SCOPE off the table its now 7)
1. Overnight sim sessions for "LANDING CURRENCY" (I presume ONLY if you are NOT CURRENT like 3 TO and Landings. Did this years ago in aircraft. No big deal.)
2. Short call reserve report (I'm short call....no big deal.)
3. Combine International and Domestic Divisions (Makes sense actually,scheduling efficiency)
4. Eliminate HBT exception (because of the combination of divisions, scheduling efficiency)
5. Vacancy Bids/Hold from training (cuts training float and provides equipment training flexibility)
6. Benefits Excise tax (too soon to really get upset about this)
7. Amendable date extended to 1/1/2020 (one year) and LOA 13-01 to 12/31/2019.
Also agrees to 10 current TA's (for JCBA) and 18 individual TA's.
In short, the Company gets us ALL expedited settlement in JCBA, big pay raises and little asked in return.
Now that scope is OFF the table all the APA HAS to do is agree with the company in principle EXCEPT tweaking some of the aforementioned items one way or another and submit it to the rank and file.
It will pass.
The APA has won. "We got them to drop scope".
The company looks good. "We dropped scope to build trust".
Let them both feel good, and sign the f'ing thing before the company says nevermind, we'll just go to arbitration, F you and your +15% (or whatever) pipe dream. See you in 2019.
11-18-2014 | 06:40 PM
#440
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
Schnurman: Union trouble at American Airlines? Say it ain?t so | Dallas Morning News
Check this article out. He makes it sound like pilots are greedy. However, he does make a good point that if we don't take the last, best offer, we will lose royally in arbitration. I don't want to make the same mistake the FA's did.
Check this article out. He makes it sound like pilots are greedy. However, he does make a good point that if we don't take the last, best offer, we will lose royally in arbitration. I don't want to make the same mistake the FA's did.
I know..... You say PHUCK THEM EagleFly and AA73.
But for the rest of us, it really is time to take stock in the leverage WE have (as of right now, ZERO, ZIP....NADA). ORRRRR....we can suck it up, admit that we should have looked at the MOU closer and accept the terms the company gives us NOW and come back PREPARED to fight another day. This is a "negotiation" we cannot win this time around and we have to MATHEMATICALLY, LOGICALLY AND LEGALLY access our current situation and come to grips with the reality of what Parker and Kirby are trying to say: "Live to fight another day" because I guarantee you NONE OF YOU IN THE PILOT PROFESSION AT THIS AIRLINE WILL BE THOUGHT OF AS SMART.
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