Elevation

Thar did start to happen in late 1944. It was worse during the presidential election of 1864. McClellan was running as a defeatist candidate against Lincoln while thousands of union soldiers died due to inept leadership in a muddy hole during the siege of Parkesburg. The South was about to fold, but a surging candidate McClellan would have lead the Union to surrender. People just saw the terrible costs in their Ohio towns, not the hungry, barefoot, raggedy confederates. Sherman and Grant saved Lincoln and possibly the Union with their ruthless work in 64. They got the idea that we were winning to the American public. That saved Lincoln. Lincoln finished the damned war. In 1864 the whole outcome of the war came down to a gut check with the American public.

We can dig more deeply into history for the pathway forward. In the Peloponnesian war there is some great guidance, but ain't nobody got time for that here.

We need to be rallied. There are loud voices calling for us to quit. Speak truthfully. Acknowledge out weaknesses and failures. Then focus us on the reason to fight. Find someone who speaks the same language as the crews. Quitting is catastrophic, but it's easy. You need to out-sell easy.

Globemaster2827

Since we're talking wars...

I've always compared your struggle to The Vietnam War. You'll lose every court battle but the terrible cost enacted on the company through the "process", the press and through their own shareholders growing impatient will equal either a victory or a complete destruction of the company. So right now they win a court battle and people complain about their 1% in dues when they should've been at UPS 2 years ago. The press reads the complaining, reports on the picketing and the shareholders see the cancelling of contracts and parking of jets that are leased. Profits suffer and stock prices tank. The people who complain about their 1% eventually get the hint and move on as do the union supporters.

As long as the pilot group never gives in the company will win court case after court case... And in the end they'll be left with nothing but a couple hundred company stooges and unhireables to fly 20% of the airplanes that they can crew which will result in cancelling of all the contracts with unhappy customers.... Or they can just pay you. Or you can give in because you want your 1% and be paid cents on the dollar like ACMI pilots are paid.

The funny thing to me is that all these "1%" people came to Atlas thinking that there was a happy ending in this for them. War is Hell.

Elevation

Agreed. In the end, closer ties to the US won out too. There's a lot we could dissect in terms of goals, limitations, fact v perception, etc.

Tons of history dorks here. I was inappropriate in comparing our struggle to armed conflict. It's easy to reference contemporary history since most pilots seem to know something about the subject.

Fundamentally it's wrong to compare what we do to combat. It cheapens the idea of combat. For us it leads to emotion when we need to be clinical. It leads to some other bad ideas on our part too.

I took the leap into war analogies. I was wrong to do so. I apologize. I shouldn't have lead us down this rabbit hole.

Lumberg823

The newest CA upgrade at DL was a 2 year on property guy so I don’t think being stuck is a reason to stay. Year 2 FO pay at the top 5 seems to be comparable to mid level CA ACMI pay so it would be a hit financially for a year but the financials should work out within a year to jump ship. I’m not there so I’m not judging, just offering a data point for anyone thinking they are helpless.

JonnyKnoxville

Lumberg, quit muddying the water with facts and quit your complaining.

Crusoe

Some would say you’ve never heard of unions or other groups calling for boycotts. Everyone has different breaking points. Some chose to fight as long as they are here. Calling for starving the beast (of new hire warm bodies) is not disingenuous. It is simply leverage in order to expedite & realize a positive change for everyone (both those here already and those who might come in the future). On the other hand - encouraging new-hire candidates to continue to jump into this volcano is nonsensical & only prolongs the problem.

BlueSkies

I'd encourage anyone who is feeling "stuck" at Atlas to check out the End of 2019 Salary topic in the Majors forum. I think you might be surprised by how much guys can pull in at the ULCCs. I remember one of the first guys to leave my newhire class went to Spirit. His wife worked there, they lived in FLL, & had young kids. So I thought, makes sense for QOL but he'll probably take a while to make up the pay. Nope. First year pay sucks, but after that you could easily make more than a 767 CA.

By the way, my class now has only 14 or 15 of the original 24 after less than 3.5 years.

Globemaster2827

It takes 3.7 years for a 7 year 747 Captain at Atlas to break even on the money he loses at UPS. Slightly longer at FedEx. So the assumptions are... 1. A 7 year 747 Captain at Atlas... 2. Leaves for UPS.... 3. Is an FO at UPS for 3.7 years... and 4. Makes an equal amount of money as if he'd just stayed at Atlas. Of course this is just 3.7 years, doesn't count upgrades, doesn't count what happens after 3.7 years. It also assumes that Atlas stays in business for 3.7 years. At FedEx it's on the 767 where you make a little less than the 777... My guess is that a 777 guy breaks even in 4-4.5 years at FedEx.

Once you upgrade you're making around $100k a year more at FedEx than Atlas and probably $150k once you hit widebody. So once I upgrade I'll be making up for the money I lost on first year pay literally every year and then some.

Gloriousprofits

I was an 8yr Atlas 767 Captain, now at FedEx for just under a year. Here are the facts, I took home about $2,600 every two weeks at Atlas. Maybe $3,100 on the big check only because of some perdiem, I would break guarantee by less than 20 hours per year so this was a very truthful and consistent scenario, I was funding my 401k at 15%.

Now at FIRST YEAR FedEx widebody Pay, I take home about $1,900 every two weeks, maybe $2,600 when there is some per diem. They are funding my 401K at 9%, (I paused my contribution for the first year) and I have a pension, superior health care, lifetime disability insurance, and fantastic schedule flexibility (drop, trade, pick up).

I can't quantify the mental health benefits of being in a much more positive atmosphere, where the goal is to go do a job well, rather than defend from an all out, fight to the death war being waged by management.

Globemaster2827

If you're living in TN (or a state with no state income tax..), your take home will be $4600 in the 4 week months for the small checks.... The checks with Per Diem and Over Guarantee will depend on what you did the previous month. I rarely leave my house so the Per Diem is usually light. 5 week months usually start at around $5500-6000 take home for the small checks. I'm averaging $11,700 take home a month since I started 2nd year pay last July. I'm gone from home 2-4 nights a month on average.

It baffles me that people sit on the fence with people telling them these things.... People need to be doing whatever they can to get to a Legacy, FedEx, or UPS right now. Let Atlas management figure it out on their own.