UPS Furlough (Part III)
08-17-2010, 04:22 PM
#62
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Originally Posted by FrontSeat
Bottom line question:
If this happened to a piece of ---- FQS, would ups handle it in the same manor?
If this happened to a piece of ---- FQS, would ups handle it in the same manor?
I think if they needed the crewmember to operate the flight it would be handled much different. If the FQS was just positioning, I would think they would treat it the same. I don't think the company discriminates between employee groups when it comes do NOT doing the right thing. Don't think for a minute the pilot group is special....they don't give a crap about anyone.
08-17-2010, 04:34 PM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 3,717
Originally Posted by Soyathink
No problem JJ as usual you know all sides and your infinite wisdom is appreciated. You understand you get what you give right? I wonder why you don't see all the behind the scenes stuff publically displayed by the company. We know that over the 103 year history of UPS there haven't been threats of violence from employees, shootings by employees, bombs detonated by employees. Employees shooting at managers. Maybe the years have led to this kind of behavior but again it is all the company and never the employee. I wouldn't expect you to understand. I'll send you a PM with a news article in it. It will show you some of the things the company has to deal with. I'm not posting it public to protect my identity but this hit my family hard. You never hear that side and thats what some of you don't understand and would probably never will.
You have a great day too.
Back to regularly scheduled programming
You have a great day too.
Back to regularly scheduled programming
Here's my reasoning: Do you know anyone who starts a new job with a bad attitude? I certainly don't. Guys who are lucky enough to get hired as a pilot for a major airline or premier freight carrier (like FedEx or UPS) know that they have won the lottery, and so they show up with an attitude that is off the scale on the positive side. However, at certain places, in a very short order, that positive attitude has turned sour. Not just for that one individual, but for almost everyone in that class and craft at that company. So the question that needs to be asked is why would a person who came to a company with such a great attitude, end up with such a bad attitude? I suggest that it is the company that is responsible for setting the correct "tone" so that employees feel whatever it is that they need to feel, in order for them to continue to feel appreciated and valued (and all the other nouns, verbs, and adjectives that one would use to describe a good job) by the company.
That said, my impression of UPS is that they not only don't really value their employees, but that they seem to go out of their way to continuously drive that point home. Who could maintain a positive attitude, working in an environment such as that? And so, you might be right, but you're certainly wrong for not taking your point further to try to understand the relationship between how UPS treats its employees and the attitudes of said employees. In other words, it's not reasonable for a company to drive my attitude down to the ground and then treat me even worse, because I have a bad attitude.
JJ
Last edited by Jetjok; 08-17-2010 at 04:43 PM. Reason: punctuation & and an additional random thought
08-17-2010, 04:38 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
Originally Posted by Jetjok
... So the question that needs to be asked is why would a person who came to a company with such a great attitude, end up with such a bad attitude?... JJ
08-17-2010, 05:00 PM
#67
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: seated, but sometimes I get up and walk around
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by Jetjok
I don't claim to "know all sides" (whatever that means), and believe it or not, I understand what you're trying to say. However, the statements you make, backed up with "facts", really begs the age-old question: which came first the chicken or the egg?" By this I mean, you seem to feel that because of employee discontent and hard feelings, management feels the same way and therefore doesn't do all it can to support its employees. I believe that your statement while possibly true, is misleading or presumptive.
Here's my reasoning: Do you know anyone who starts a new job with a bad attitude? I certainly don't. Guys who are lucky enough to get hired as a pilot for a major airline or premier freight carrier (like FedEx or UPS) know that they have won the lottery, and so they show up with an attitude that is off the scale on the positive side. However, at certain places, in a very short order, that positive attitude has turned sour. Not just for that one individual, but for almost everyone in that class and craft at that company. So the question that needs to be asked is why would a person who came to a company with such a great attitude, end up with such a bad attitude? I suggest that it is the company that is responsible for setting the correct "tone" so that employees feel whatever it is that they need to feel, in order for them to continue to feel appreciated and valued (and all the other nouns, verbs, and adjectives that one would use to describe a good job) by the company.
That said, my impression of UPS is that they not only don't really value their employees, but that they seem to go out of their way to continuously drive that point home. Who could maintain a positive attitude, working in an environment such as that? And so, you might be right, but you're certainly wrong for not taking your point further to try to understand the relationship between how UPS treats its employees and the attitudes of said employees. In other words, it's not reasonable for a company to drive my attitude down to the ground and then treat me even worse, because I have a bad attitude.
JJ
Here's my reasoning: Do you know anyone who starts a new job with a bad attitude? I certainly don't. Guys who are lucky enough to get hired as a pilot for a major airline or premier freight carrier (like FedEx or UPS) know that they have won the lottery, and so they show up with an attitude that is off the scale on the positive side. However, at certain places, in a very short order, that positive attitude has turned sour. Not just for that one individual, but for almost everyone in that class and craft at that company. So the question that needs to be asked is why would a person who came to a company with such a great attitude, end up with such a bad attitude? I suggest that it is the company that is responsible for setting the correct "tone" so that employees feel whatever it is that they need to feel, in order for them to continue to feel appreciated and valued (and all the other nouns, verbs, and adjectives that one would use to describe a good job) by the company.
That said, my impression of UPS is that they not only don't really value their employees, but that they seem to go out of their way to continuously drive that point home. Who could maintain a positive attitude, working in an environment such as that? And so, you might be right, but you're certainly wrong for not taking your point further to try to understand the relationship between how UPS treats its employees and the attitudes of said employees. In other words, it's not reasonable for a company to drive my attitude down to the ground and then treat me even worse, because I have a bad attitude.
JJ
Last edited by aseweepay; 08-17-2010 at 06:10 PM.
08-17-2010, 05:48 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 397
Originally Posted by Jetjok
I don't claim to "know all sides" (whatever that means), and believe it or not, I understand what you're trying to say. However, the statements you make, backed up with "facts", really begs the age-old question: which came first the chicken or the egg?" By this I mean, you seem to feel that because of employee discontent and hard feelings, management feels the same way and therefore doesn't do all it can to support its employees. I believe that your statement while possibly true, is misleading or presumptive.
Here's my reasoning: Do you know anyone who starts a new job with a bad attitude? I certainly don't. Guys who are lucky enough to get hired as a pilot for a major airline or premier freight carrier (like FedEx or UPS) know that they have won the lottery, and so they show up with an attitude that is off the scale on the positive side. However, at certain places, in a very short order, that positive attitude has turned sour. Not just for that one individual, but for almost everyone in that class and craft at that company. So the question that needs to be asked is why would a person who came to a company with such a great attitude, end up with such a bad attitude? I suggest that it is the company that is responsible for setting the correct "tone" so that employees feel whatever it is that they need to feel, in order for them to continue to feel appreciated and valued (and all the other nouns, verbs, and adjectives that one would use to describe a good job) by the company.
That said, my impression of UPS is that they not only don't really value their employees, but that they seem to go out of their way to continuously drive that point home. Who could maintain a positive attitude, working in an environment such as that? And so, you might be right, but you're certainly wrong for not taking your point further to try to understand the relationship between how UPS treats its employees and the attitudes of said employees. In other words, it's not reasonable for a company to drive my attitude down to the ground and then treat me even worse, because I have a bad attitude.
JJ
Here's my reasoning: Do you know anyone who starts a new job with a bad attitude? I certainly don't. Guys who are lucky enough to get hired as a pilot for a major airline or premier freight carrier (like FedEx or UPS) know that they have won the lottery, and so they show up with an attitude that is off the scale on the positive side. However, at certain places, in a very short order, that positive attitude has turned sour. Not just for that one individual, but for almost everyone in that class and craft at that company. So the question that needs to be asked is why would a person who came to a company with such a great attitude, end up with such a bad attitude? I suggest that it is the company that is responsible for setting the correct "tone" so that employees feel whatever it is that they need to feel, in order for them to continue to feel appreciated and valued (and all the other nouns, verbs, and adjectives that one would use to describe a good job) by the company.
That said, my impression of UPS is that they not only don't really value their employees, but that they seem to go out of their way to continuously drive that point home. Who could maintain a positive attitude, working in an environment such as that? And so, you might be right, but you're certainly wrong for not taking your point further to try to understand the relationship between how UPS treats its employees and the attitudes of said employees. In other words, it's not reasonable for a company to drive my attitude down to the ground and then treat me even worse, because I have a bad attitude.
JJ
I understand what you are saying. UPS is a different breed of company. No news there. I can tell you over 40 years of stories there. I ask you are the majority of UPS Employees hating UPS or not? I know over 400,000 employees there are going to be alot. Now out of 2,800 UPS pilots how many post here regularly? How many hate UPS. I'm sure you will have 300
. How you have a company drive an employees attitude down? Well go back to 1907 with Jim Casey. How many knew he was never married? How many knew he had no children? This was a man who was married to the business he started. This was a man who felt everybody that worked for UPS was a partner. Jim Casey wanted every employee to take ownership of the company. It was expected that every employee do that and to make sacrifices for the good of the company. In return you would make a good wage and a good living. If you didn't incorporate the UPS culture you were looked down on and your life was not so pleasant at work. So this is where UPS first and family second. UPS then became unionized where employees felt union first and UPS third behind family. Well management took the Casey Side and the union to its position. Remember that UPS was founded in 1907. The labor disputes of the mid to late 1800's were still fresh in everbody's minds. (Pinkerton). The company was divided. There have been numerous strikes throughout the 103 years at UPS. During those strikes there have been violence and vandalism to UPS managers, property, families and personal property. These are things that are not forgotten on the company side, just like the passport thing, the room thing, and the furloughs. Not all UPS managers have the us vs them attitude just like not all employees don't either. It always seems that the stuff hits the fan at contract time or when things get tough. Last go around it was the outsourcing to air china. You can look at the press releases from the union. Then the company fires back with something typically not seen in the paper but felt in the ranks. (furloughs) Once the new deal is signed then all is well You have union leaders and Managers shaking hands in front of the camera's talking about what an epic deal it is. The problem is you have people on both sides that don't forget what happened. Things are quiet for a while then the sabres come out again. 2011 is the end of the pilots deal and 2012 is the end of the drivers deal, and we are in the toughest times of our lives.
I could go on with more but it seems some here just won't get it. They think its us vs them and no matter what its like that. You see posts of infighting in the union over the past and current regimes. You see posts of some pretty absurd stuff. You see posts of misinformed rumours. It can be all summed up by Gumbies posts to say JUP or other line pilots. You can see it in the posts regarding Roberto and the hate directed at him. You can see it in the all the posts directed at me full of insults because I look at things a different way than most here. The thing is I listen to what most said here. If I'm wrong or you prove a point I admit it. I don't just fire off an insult. Those are things that breed hate in a company. It breeds hate on both sides. It was bred before UPS had one single airplane. Is it right? I don't think so and think you don't either. I'm not here to **** off pilots. I admit I'm not the most tactful person either.
To those who want to continue insult me go ahead. I've been thru worse and called worse. I'm still standing. To those who want to debate with me I'll respect your opinions and listen. To those who just like to stir the pot and feed the rumours, BRING IT!!!!!!!
08-17-2010, 05:51 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 397
Originally Posted by aseweepay
Very well stated, I think you have nailed it...Hence the problem with bean counters running corporations. Since they need everything quantified, in a column or on a spreadsheet, in my opinion, they loose sight of the big picture and the cost/benefit of good will and motivated workgroups...
Last edited by Soyathink; 08-17-2010 at 06:35 PM.
08-17-2010, 06:33 PM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 397
The passport thing, So what would the company be expected to do in this situation? Guess what, unless things changed they would have directed the pilot or employee to the consulate or embassy. That is pretty much all they could do. Regarding your posts about FQS' not carrying their passports out of country. I will reply that is stupid. I was told that I didn't need to carry my passport a years back on business in Honduras. I left it in the safe in my room. Well I don't look like I'm from Honduras. I was asked for my passport and didn't have it with me. This was in a country that wasn't communist like China. I was detained and questioned until a co worker could retrieve my passport and bring it to the station. So if you you are in a foreign country especially like China, you are not very bright to go out without your passport.
Make three copies of everything before you leave. Make copies of your passport, travel itinerary and tickets, credit cards, driver's license, and any other important documents. Copy the back of everything, as well. This can make it easier for you to recover if any of your documents are stolen, but keep the copies in separate locations, and keep them safe. You can also consider making scans of your documents and e-mailing them as attachments to yourself to be printed when and if needed. You may be able to store your important documents in an online "safe" for more security.
Get the addresses and phone numbers of your country's embassy and any military bases (if applicable) before your arrival to the foreign country. For some countries, such as the USA and Australia, it is possible to register with a consulate online, ahead of travel. Once you have done this, if there arises any kind of natural disaster or military conflict, the consulate will know that you are in the country, which is the first step in being able to offer assistance.
Safeguard your room. Ask for a room that is not on the ground floor or near the elevator or fire stairs, as they tend to get thieved more often. Bring a rubber door wedge and put it under your door every night, just in case. If someone has a key or picks the lock, the rubber wedge will give you enough time to make a commotion and call for help. If you don't have a wedge, put the chair up against the door knob. Put a "do not disturb" sign on your door when you leave so that people think you're in there. Leave the TV on at a moderate volume so that people cannot tell if your room is occupied or not. Keep your valuables out of sight in a safe or in a not-so-obvious container (like a locked case or bag with TSA approved locks)
Carry your documents strategically. Do not place your credit cards, cash, ID cards, and passport all in the same place.
Keep cash and credit cards separate from ID cards and passports. By keeping things separated you eliminate the risk of having them all stolen.Always have some cash stashed away in a shoe, a hidden pocket, or in yet another shoe, in case you need immediate cash for taxi ride or something fast to eat. Do not carry too much cash, and never flash it all when you pay.If you have a wallet, wear it in your front pants pocket instead of in the back and your pocketbook close to the body. To be extra safe, prepare a mugger's wallet -- an inexpensive wallet with a small amount of real cash plus fake sample credit cards and IDs. Use this fake wallet in case you are mugged and have to give it up. Throw it towards them but aim for further than them. As they run to get the wallet, you have the chance to run the opposite way to get away from them. The muggers are more interested in the cash and won't take the time to examine the fake cards and IDs until later.
Never give your passport to a hotel clerk. Some countries have laws that require that hotels hold the passports of their guests (such as Italy, where handing over your passport overnight is usually perfectly safe). If you feel uncomfortable about parting with your documents, you can often get a certified copy of your passport information that you can substitute. You might also make a good quality photocopy of the main passport page and demand the hotel hold that instead.
Now back to the topic or insult me
Make three copies of everything before you leave. Make copies of your passport, travel itinerary and tickets, credit cards, driver's license, and any other important documents. Copy the back of everything, as well. This can make it easier for you to recover if any of your documents are stolen, but keep the copies in separate locations, and keep them safe. You can also consider making scans of your documents and e-mailing them as attachments to yourself to be printed when and if needed. You may be able to store your important documents in an online "safe" for more security.
Get the addresses and phone numbers of your country's embassy and any military bases (if applicable) before your arrival to the foreign country. For some countries, such as the USA and Australia, it is possible to register with a consulate online, ahead of travel. Once you have done this, if there arises any kind of natural disaster or military conflict, the consulate will know that you are in the country, which is the first step in being able to offer assistance.
Safeguard your room. Ask for a room that is not on the ground floor or near the elevator or fire stairs, as they tend to get thieved more often. Bring a rubber door wedge and put it under your door every night, just in case. If someone has a key or picks the lock, the rubber wedge will give you enough time to make a commotion and call for help. If you don't have a wedge, put the chair up against the door knob. Put a "do not disturb" sign on your door when you leave so that people think you're in there. Leave the TV on at a moderate volume so that people cannot tell if your room is occupied or not. Keep your valuables out of sight in a safe or in a not-so-obvious container (like a locked case or bag with TSA approved locks)
Carry your documents strategically. Do not place your credit cards, cash, ID cards, and passport all in the same place.
Keep cash and credit cards separate from ID cards and passports. By keeping things separated you eliminate the risk of having them all stolen.Always have some cash stashed away in a shoe, a hidden pocket, or in yet another shoe, in case you need immediate cash for taxi ride or something fast to eat. Do not carry too much cash, and never flash it all when you pay.If you have a wallet, wear it in your front pants pocket instead of in the back and your pocketbook close to the body. To be extra safe, prepare a mugger's wallet -- an inexpensive wallet with a small amount of real cash plus fake sample credit cards and IDs. Use this fake wallet in case you are mugged and have to give it up. Throw it towards them but aim for further than them. As they run to get the wallet, you have the chance to run the opposite way to get away from them. The muggers are more interested in the cash and won't take the time to examine the fake cards and IDs until later.
Never give your passport to a hotel clerk. Some countries have laws that require that hotels hold the passports of their guests (such as Italy, where handing over your passport overnight is usually perfectly safe). If you feel uncomfortable about parting with your documents, you can often get a certified copy of your passport information that you can substitute. You might also make a good quality photocopy of the main passport page and demand the hotel hold that instead.
Now back to the topic or insult me
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