Originally Posted by formerdal (Post 1194900)

What's difficult to swallow here is you and the Union are pushing all this information about the length of time negotiations would take. This must be made on the assumption that our management is not planning to negotiate in good faith. If that is the case constructive engagement is a FAILURE!

We have been told over and over from you guys since bankruptcy that if we keep helping management out with all their issues it will pay huge dividends when we get to Section six. Well, apparently that is not the case since you are telling us management does not plan on being as accommodating as you guys thought.

This is something all of us should keep in mind going forward and during this vote ....oh, and please tell TO if he wants to compare our pay to any period in time it should be when we entered bankruptcy not when we exited just so he can get a better sound bite.

Very Dissapointed and no longer a supporter of Delta Air Lines!

Originally Posted by Bigflya (Post 1194802)

OK, first let me get the Jim Cramerisms disclosures out of the way. I am NYC based CP on reserve (always have been). 2008 hire with an MBA and I dont own DAL stock in my charitable trust. I haven't even opened the new TA but got info from various posts and the Charimen's Letter. What does this mean, I've been trained to think like mgmt and know what to pick up on in their press releases. I like our current mgmt team as they have openly disclosed their plan since 2008, and have executed it so far with impressive results. I wont pull any punches but tell it as I see it.

Lesson #1: Any Mgmts stated goal since MBA 101 is to maximize shareholder value, taught from day one and reemphasized daily. This means maximize profit by minimizing costs. Pilots are a cost, period.
Lesson #2: Don't take it personal, its just business.

As a newhire in 2008 the differnet mgmt types came down to newhire indoc and gave their outlook for the future of the co. If you knew what to pick-up on the groundwork was being laid out.

At this time, rumors of a merger with NWA were on the street but these folks were hush. But they were saying things like Dal wants a 100 seat aircraft and there was no reasonable a/c on the mkt to buy. Also, Dal is rapidly exapnding overseas but is weak in Asia and the overlap with their system was negligible. Enter NW's DC-9's (temp fix) and the Narita hub. Deal done.

Next RA and mgmt types state in multiple speeches and investor conferences that Dal will win in NY and that HVC's need the total business class experience. That they need the HVC to have the business class experience from Leg one on their journey. Enter the slot swap, terminal build and more 70 seat two class aircraft. And being a frequent USAir commuter into LGA and seeing the RJ operation there, there was no surprise that 90+ % of the flying went to RJ's. Most city pairs do not support mainline aircraft but do have wealthy HVC's coiming into NYC and beyond and want the FC seat. Anyone not see this coming?

Now we have this TA which is immediately backed up by press releases of a 717 lease from SWA and worse of all the pilot group is thrown out as hinging on the deal. If anyone believes that they are ignorant of big business. Mgmt is trying to tell us thru the media that the 88 717's are hingent on this TA passing. But do you really think SWA (and Boeing) would hinge this deal on the vote of a pilot group who took a BK contract? SWA mgmt has made a strategic plan regarding these aircraft and their future 737 orders and is not going to look back. Since we are one year out from rx the first 717's, I'm sure our mgmt guarenteed SWA mgmt that the deal would be done and divestiture of their jets would be per the contract. Dal has a year to get it done. SWA's stock has been hammered in the mkts for deviating from their business model including operating two aircraft types. They will get rid of these jets and DAL will take them on-time. Kicker: DAL loves getting good jets at cheap prices relative to new aircraft. Will they turn away 88 narrowboby jets they've been seeking since 2008 at a inexpensive price? Of course not, it's just business.

What's next? Dal hurried this deal thru to allow time for more negotiations in case the first (or subsequent deals) fail. They will come back to the table to achieve their goals. They are on a timeline that we now know (mid 2013). New JFK terminal and LGA concourse connection also mid 2013. In my opinion vote no and renegotiate. I'm also a fan of DPA, at least to force a vote and scare ALPA into reform. The fact that Moak was a 7ER guy making about $200k a yr at DAL and last year made $500k at ALPA makes me ill.

Originally Posted by formerdal (Post 1194900)

What's difficult to swallow here is you and the Union are pushing all this information about the length of time negotiations would take. This must be made on the assumption that our management is not planning to negotiate in good faith. If that is the case constructive engagement is a FAILURE!

We have been told over and over from you guys since bankruptcy that if we keep helping management out with all their issues it will pay huge dividends when we get to Section six. Well, apparently that is not the case since you are telling us management does not plan on being as accommodating as you guys thought.

This is something all of us should keep in mind going forward and during this vote ....oh, and please tell TO if he wants to compare our pay to any period in time it should be when we entered bankruptcy not when we exited just so he can get a better sound bite.

Very Dissapointed and no longer a supporter of Delta Air Lines!

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1194928)

The biggest mistake anyone can make is to assume that management is your friend. We have made our pilot group into a business partner with management That is what constructive engagement is, it is not going to birthday parties and yucking it up in the corporate boardroom.

We have added value to Delta in the last five years and they have put value back into our pockets. We have compounded gains into our contract at a rate that vastly exceeds other pilot groups. If we stop adding value to the company, they will put us to the side and ignore us for as long as they can. Events of the last five years have shown that we can sit for years, in fact many years with nothing happening in old school Section 6.

If you are unsure about what happens when you no longer are a business partner look what happened to Mesa (Freedom). As soon as they got on the bad side of Delta they went Scarface on them, they ended up in bankruptcy.

Here are the returns (both pay and DC plan) per year since bankruptcy exit:

2008 - 5.3% (average, some higher some lower)
2009 - 5%
2010 - 5%
2011 - 5%
2012 - 4% + 4%(TA) = 8.1% compounded
2013 - 8.5% (TA)
2014 - 4% (TA)
2015 - 3% (TA)

Quick, one of you financial gurus do a compounded return on that and let me know what you come up with.

Originally Posted by Elvis90 (Post 1194841)

This is the leverage we have - Sailing and Slowplay please read. RA has committed to the 717 and is past V1. Also, aren't we prepping for an AS merger? He needs the pilots' help on that, just like DAL-NWA.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1194807)

...she always seems to look over at the clock and oh I'm busted. "it's 230 in the am and you're still playing on the internet with your friends you've never met?!?!"

Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1194961)

What's wrong with taking more time to get this right? :rolleyes:

I don't buy things just because someone tells me it's on sale and the last one. Even if it was the case I'd rather walk than make the more than likely time value mistake.

And frankly, I'm stuck on scope. If I had to chose between the two I'd rather have our current PWA scope.