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Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1475158)
I too heard last week that Boeing had taken the lead for the RFP award.
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Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 1475163)
Now you're venturing onto areas that are best left to others. It's not a good idea to describe appropriate choices for people placed in a situation you don't fully grasp.
One guy blew his brains out. Many others found out their spouses weren't into furloughed Delta pilots. Not every father runs an insurance company, and an insurance company is no cockpit. I was very aggressive at finding a replacement job, and very "lucky". I fed my family, and had that satisfaction. I also paid off my career debt, so that was good. Other than that, I hated every day at work, feeling like a fish out of the water. My company fired 20% every year, and hired 20% every year. I learned a little about human behavior those Friday mornings, when I saw people leaving their cubicles with a little box of personal effects, and a portion of their dignity: you feel bad for them until noon. By the time you drive home, you're just overcome with relief it wasn't you. That's how these things work, and it's true in our industry as well: we do a little for the furloughees, we talk about them, but mostly we're just glad we're not in their shoes. Which makes it difficult to lecture them on the circumstances under which they might have liked to return to work. Many guys would have given their left nut for a 6-months stint, with a 75% chance of re-furlough. You're a smart person, and a very informed poster. I have a lot of respect for much of your work. You can validate that respect by acknowledging you're wrong, when you're wrong. You were probably correct about the numbers of green slips, but you took a wrong turn in this last post. |
Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 1475163)
Now you're venturing onto areas that are best left to others. It's not a good idea to describe appropriate choices for people placed in a situation you don't fully grasp.
One guy blew his brains out. Many others found out their spouses weren't into furloughed Delta pilots. Not every father runs an insurance company, and an insurance company is no cockpit. I was very aggressive at finding a replacement job, and very "lucky". I fed my family, and had that satisfaction. I also paid off my career debt, so that was good. Other than that, I hated every day at work, feeling like a fish out of the water. My company fired 20% every year, and hired 20% every year. I learned a little about human behavior those Friday mornings, when I saw people leaving their cubicles with a little box of personal effects, and a portion of their dignity: you feel bad for them until noon. By the time you drive home, you're just overcome with relief it wasn't you. That's how these things work, and it's true in our industry as well: we do a little for the furloughees, we talk about them, but mostly we're just glad we're not in their shoes. Which makes it difficult to lecture them on the circumstances under which they might have liked to return to work. Many guys would have given their left nut for a 6-months stint, with a 75% chance of re-furlough. You're a smart person, and a very informed poster. I have a lot of respect for much of your work. You can validate that respect by acknowledging you're wrong, when you're wrong. You were probably correct about the numbers of green slips, but you took a wrong turn in this last post. |
That's my understanding, DH. It happened very early in the process.
Also, I should have been a little less graphic in my description. |
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 1475015)
When bankruptcy hit we lost the entire 737-200 fleet. We were overstaffed by hundreds of pilots. If we had 600-700 more, what in the world would make you think they would not furlough those pilots? Seriously, are you daft?
It was not cavalier at all. What is cavalier is that we should "hope" that management would not furlough. Did you see what bankruptcy was? Get rid of your anger and use your brain for once in your life. Or maybe you are just a cruel person that likes to play with people's lives like they are pawns. Did you see what bankruptcy was? I know you saw it up close, but did anyone take the long view of what bankruptcy was, strategically? I heard senior managers and some former senior managers talking about bankruptcy as early as 1999 - 2000. Books had been written, including "Debunking the Delta Myth" which suggested reorganization was an eventual certainty. Even while we enjoy good times today, I believe we should be stress testing our job protection provisions against worst case scenarios as part of our strategic planning ... because it is under severe stress that structures are most likely to fail. Allowing alter ego, wholly owned subsidiaries, to exist going into a bankruptcy is always a horrible idea. If United's immediate shifting of 30% of their flying to their alter ego's is too recent an example, just consider the Texas Air example where Lorenzo shifted flying and jobs to whipsaw labor. ALPA lost not only Eastern, but Continental also when the strike breakers at the alter ego went their own way. Giving management alter ego choices is always going to result in their transferring flying and keeping the operation going, even while taking a chainsaw to their mainline employee groups. Then the division between employee groups results in inevitable claims of conflicts of interest, which today is reflected in this DPA thing. Delta's 737-200's were not "lost in bankruptcy" any more than 737-200's were lost at Southwest, or United, or Piedmont. 737-200's were re-fleeted with more nimble units of capacity which had lower trip and CASM metrics as part of the normal course of fleet renewal. Over roughly the period from ALPA's 1998 policy changes on alter ego and our merger available seat miles on the express carriers grew from a little over 30 billion to a little under 100 billion, easily 300% growth. Load factor increased from just under 50% to 75% (in line with mainline carriers, which was the role they now filled). Passenger emplanements grew from right around 60 million to 160 million. There were plenty of jobs to be had. The difference was our strategy which deemed those jobs undesirable for us to perform and as a result management transferring our jobs to folks we allowed to perform the task for less. Strategically, we should be looking at what we did wrong and fixing it. Contract 2012 is progress, absolutely. But actions, like the Pinnacle Bridge Agreement, suggests we have work to do. |
Originally Posted by ExAF
(Post 1475200)
Couldn't agree more. I knew the fNWA guy that killed himself. It is true. It also amazes me that someone could sit there and say the DPA movement is all because TC is angry that he was furloughed. That's the epitome of out of touch or denial.
On the other hand, there is no doubt in my mind that some of the DPA is about TC's vendetta. I don't know enough about the guy to say if it's anything to do with being furloughed, however. I would agree that the DPA is probably about a number of things. My personal opinion is that it's a power struggle between guys running the show now, vs. people who used to run the show and have been discredited or simply replaced, linking with TC's particular brand of, huh, excentrism, and trying to capture as broad a slice of those who want improvement/change/reform. All the while completely ignoring those who want to improve/change/reform, but are otherwise unimpressed with the DPA. And all the time failing to accomplish anything constructive. |
Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 1475210)
My personal opinion is that it's a power struggle between guys running the show now, vs. people who used to run the show and have been discredited or simply replaced, linking with TC's particular brand of, huh, excentrism, and trying to capture as broad a slice of those who want improvement/change/reform.
All the while completely ignoring those who want to improve/change/reform, but are otherwise unimpressed with the DPA. And all the time failing to accomplish anything constructive. +1 |
Originally Posted by Rather B Fishin
(Post 1475102)
I guess you failed to mention that to TC????
Cooperation and proactive engagement make the other guy rich.:) :p TEN |
Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 1475163)
Now you're venturing onto areas that are best left to others. It's not a good idea to describe appropriate choices for people placed in a situation you don't fully grasp.
One guy blew his brains out. Many others found out their spouses weren't into furloughed Delta pilots. Not every father runs an insurance company, and an insurance company is no cockpit. I was very aggressive at finding a replacement job, and very "lucky". I fed my family, and had that satisfaction. I also paid off my career debt, so that was good. Other than that, I hated every day at work, feeling like a fish out of the water. My company fired 20% every year, and hired 20% every year. I learned a little about human behavior those Friday mornings, when I saw people leaving their cubicles with a little box of personal effects, and a portion of their dignity: you feel bad for them until noon. By the time you drive home, you're just overcome with relief it wasn't you. That's how these things work, and it's true in our industry as well: we do a little for the furloughees, we talk about them, but mostly we're just glad we're not in their shoes. Which makes it difficult to lecture them on the circumstances under which they might have liked to return to work. Many guys would have given their left nut for a 6-months stint, with a 75% chance of re-furlough. You're a smart person, and a very informed poster. I have a lot of respect for much of your work. You can validate that respect by acknowledging you're wrong, when you're wrong. You were probably correct about the numbers of green slips, but you took a wrong turn in this last post. I appreciate the Delta Pilots during furlough..Cobra was huge! However, DALPA made very poor choices in helping furloughed guys get back on property. I feel things would have been different if those jobs being outsourced weren't mainly ALPA. An independent union would have been jumping up and down about the direct outsourcing to wholly owned subsidiaries. At the very least, putting up road blocks everywhere! ALPA facilitating it through side letters was unforgivable. C2012 should have been the death nail to the RJ outsourcing model. Why wasn't it? The rest of the industry is now forced to follow our path once again as the outsourcing leader. Selling bigger RJ scope for pay!! Look at latest from the union. Pay, pay, pay etc...no mention of scope at all! And No....selling more large RJs is not a win. It is a major fail!! That little MGT outsourcing project was failing and ALPA was there to save the day with C2012. |
Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 1475210)
Then it sounds as though we had two, which is tragic.
On the other hand, there is no doubt in my mind that some of the DPA is about TC's vendetta. I don't know enough about the guy to say if it's anything to do with being furloughed, however. I would agree that the DPA is probably about a number of things. My personal opinion is that it's a power struggle between guys running the show now, vs. people who used to run the show and have been discredited or simply replaced, linking with TC's particular brand of, huh, excentrism, and trying to capture as broad a slice of those who want improvement/change/reform. All the while completely ignoring those who want to improve/change/reform, but are otherwise unimpressed with the DPA. And all the time failing to accomplish anything constructive. Perhaps some former NWA guys with firsthand knowledge could chime in here..... Some of the former NWA guys I've flown have told me how TC made it a habit of purposely writing up aircraft at out stations to disrupt company ops. Apparently it was so egregious that the union had to intervene. (This is just a second hand story, so in no way is it gospel, but I have heard it from more than one person) |
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