Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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Originally Posted by Sink r8 (Post 1475330)

Except it didn't play out that way. Each pilot group played this according to their own beliefs, and for the most part their beliefs match human nature. UAL just agreed to yank their furloughees acquired longevity on furlough. As far as I know, APA didn't do anything special for them. USAPA? The same.

I think it did play out that way. No carrier did more to facilitate outsourcing than DALPA through side letters. UAL and USAir were both ALPA at the time and fell into BK much quicker than DAL. Delta pilots saw the writing on the wall regarding terminated DB at USAir and bailed to the tune of 1000-2000. This loss of pilots necessitated our later return. This type and magnitude of pilot exodus did not occur at the other legacies. CAL was at the time INDEPENDENT and had the strongest SCOPE (go figure). Who was most successful at returning furloughees? By far it was CAL. The same DOH as me is a narrow body mid-seniority captain...because of scope.

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The Delta pilots, as independently represented by our branch of the ALPA, took better care of our own, but that didn't quite extend to avoiding voluntary flying. COBRA was a positive step, as you pointed out. They also fought and won a recall in the case of FMII, and fought FMI, but ultimately gave up on, FMI. At every airline, pilots came back mostly when the airline wanted them back.

We are not independent. Look no further than the latest example in C2012 and the requirement to hire a percentage of ALPA pilots. We are even lowering our degree requirement to accommodate flowing ALPA pilots. Regarding FM, it was used perfectly by the company to keep guys out as long as they needed. We would have come back sooner without DALPA's side lettering aide to the company, enabling more outsourcing.

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We're never going to get anywhere if we don't acknowledge that we drive the behavior. KR was faithfully relating the sentiment of the group: we (collectively) ask for pay, pay, pay, basing ourselves on a very narrow, short-term version of self-interest.

Our problem is that the majority of us believes that payrate increases solve everything. The people like Bar, who understand how to truly close the loop on furloughs and whipsaw, and are focused on bigger issues, are hopelessly outnumbered.

It isn't rocket science and besides everyone I have had the privelidge to share the cockpit with is quite intelligent and concerned with scope at both ends. I have yet to find anyone who asked for more large RJs in the secret survey or a longer JV compliance window for the heavy iron. It is simply too easy for ALPA to sell scope at the negotiating table when it will be a win for the overall umbrella of ALPA the corp. Top down representation is what I have seen followed by the hard sell.

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One of the biggest red herrings about ALPA is the presumption that National drives our actions. This feeds the quaint fantasy that somehow, the evil union is preventing our true, majestic, compassionate nature from blossoming into something beautiful, and oh so effective.

In this state of denial, I suppose the e-mail musings of a second-rate messiah is music to one's ears. Sounds very soothing, when you think about it: "...deep-down, I know you're a [deleted] tiger (or a cobra, whatever your preference is), and you're ready to burn this place down. All that's holding you back is those [deleted] ALPA guys, polling you, but failing to understand from your payrate-first attitude, that what you really are asking for is Scope, Scope, Scope. They're polling, but they're not really "bottom-up". We would be. And they're not really telling you what you want to focus on, but we would be willing to lead. So we'd do what you want, and tell you what to want us to do...".

Until we stop hoping someone is going to turn our water into wine, we're never going to acknowledge the issues, and therefore, we have no chance of solving them. Trying to pretend our issue is oppressive representation is a farce, a grotesque injury we commit onto ourselves. This is why we fail to properly supervise, and this how a fraction of the union guys (any union's guys) start sounding like wet nurses or management proxies: we're turning into a bunch of wet-nurses and management proxies. We probably poll like wet-nurses and management proxies, not trade unionists. And for sure, there wouldn't be enough of us to even show up at an election to vote for a trade unionist over a wet nurse.

The best I can do is observe. Based on what you say, the majority of us are in denial. My observations don't support that argument. My observations are we are a quite capable intelligent group who can look out for our own best interest. We certainly have not been coerced by some messiah and by saying such shows what little regard you have for your fellow aviator. I know I don't appreciate it. I'll bet the majority who support DPA would support any independent movement. I believe in it because I believe in us.

I think a union shouldn't have to be told to protect our jobs. It goes without saying. It's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs applied to unionism. The basic need is the job. It is primary and most essential. Get rid of jobs and you decrease your leverage/worth. Then why would a union do such a thing? The union as a whole benefits in some other way. As I have said before, ALPA and MGT both want to diversify their pilot groups. Less risk for both. This reduction in risk is the reason ALPA carriers have historically and continue to have the weakest scope. The key is that the outsourced jobs mainly be ALPA replacements. If ALPA/MGT continue to play that game, expect to see more scope sales in the future. Sold to us by our elected reps. I don't want my bargaining agent benefiting in any way with the outsourcing of my job. While other groups have benefited some, by and large ALPA represented pilots have filled the vast majority of outsourced jobs under the Delta brand.

Independent unions have stronger scope. They receive no dues money if the job is outsourced. They fight relaxation of scope. Dalpa uses it as a bargaining chip. If you want to continue to sell scope at the cost of an ever-shrinking, less leveraged group, continue with ALPA. Mi dos centavos.