I don't know, Timbo. I'm thinking that sitting short call for 23 hours and then reporting for a 16-hour flight was a pretty big problem even with a rest facility? For the domestic guys, having to get PIC concurrence to go beyond 9-14 hours on duty (depending upon the time of day and number of legs) makes a lot of sense, too. Not to mention no layover ever less than 10 hours.

OK, except that's not the data you presented at all. It wasn't broken down by fleet or by route, just across the airline. Find the data on 737 fleet productivity on routes of 800nm, and then we can discuss apples-to-apples. I suspect on that basis DAL pilots are very close to SWA productivity - not that that's a good thing, but one less stumbling block to significant gains in C2015.

It's ok to discuss what our challenges will be in C2015, but this doesn't seem to be one of them, & not sure why you're grasping at straws on why the NMB is gonna park us during record profits, all without offering ideas of how we can make substantial gains. :confused: I believe you when you say you're not management, & I think you were pretty unfairly attacked on the forum over the last day regarding the MoRon incident, but it really is a pretty steady stream of "don't expect much in the next contract" from you. Sheer contrarianism? An Eeyore complex? :(

Ugh! I want a do-over. July schedule sucks balls:eek:

I believe Sailing's story. It's easy to believe. I know pilots that were threatened privately by DAL management in various ways. I was here when the "plantation mentality" was in full force. A patriarchal management style with a compliant DALPA made it common place to threaten anyone "uppity" enough to complain or seek change.

Many here would remember Charlie S., a controversial figure for sure. It seems to me that his job was threatened about 2x a year. Charlie T is reported to have threatened/fired him for declining to come into the CPO on a day off. A less compliant ALPA headed that one off.

Northwest was a labor lawyers dream. I get that. But in light of DAL's history Sailing's story is 100% believable. And attacking his integrity because you do not like his position is Toolish.

Agreed. 117 (the "new government rules") are vastly superior to the older "government rules." The 8-hour rest was an abomination.

There are a few 'good' things in FAR117, no doubt, but much of it seems bass-akwards.

First off, prior to 117, nobody could sit International short call for 23 hours, then fly 16, or even more than one. Remember Whithlow? You had to be able to look back 24 hours and find 8 hrs. free of duty for rest, short call was not considered "Rest" so as you sat longer, your availability to fly became shorter.

I do like that they eliminated -any- 24hr. short calls though, that was just stupid.

Second, the "Problem" they were trying to fix, was a Domestic flying (mostly RJ) problem, r.e. the Buffalo crash.

They "fixed it" by allowing 2 pilots to fly 9 hours, instead of 8.

Brilliant.:rolleyes:

I do like that they made the minimum layover 10 hours though, if I were King, that would have been an FAR about 40 years ago, along with a max number of legs flown per day, and my number would have been 5 legs, not 6, shortened by back side of the clock flying. And yes, when I was flying both the MD88 and the 75/767 domestic, there were a few trips where, due to wx, we got in very late for our 9hr. layover. I called crew scheds and told them we would NOT be making our 0600 pushback, due to fatigue. I never got any blowback about it from the CPO.

But what about the CDO bullet we just dodged?

That's still legal?? :rolleyes:

YGTBSM.

About the whole CEO intimidation thing, yes, I fully believe SF, that was Mo'Ron's way of dealing with...everyone. If you spoke out, on the DALPA forum or via letters, he would "Call you in" to talk about it, hoping to intimidate you, and everyone you talked to afterwards.

I remember the two Charlies too, Tutt and Sargent. Someone should have locked them in a cage and let them duke it out, like Thunder Dome! "Two men enter, one man leaves!"

Maybe someone should have told Delta this. Int'l pilots have been sitting short call for years and then flying at the end of that short call. The 1999 reserve rest letter from the FAA (not Whitlow, BTW) only defined domestic reserve as breaking a pilot's rest. Int'l guys were not protected at all.

Looks like a lot of July A schedules are out via the backdoor….

Whitlow did not apply to international operations.

Yeah, As are out but I'm trying to backdoor the B & keep getting denied! Good thing "no" really means "maybe, if you keep trying it!" :D