Originally Posted by DALMD88FO (Post 1717796)

Yeah I don't see the company doing/asking for this. I know it doesn't show it on this site since we don't have the aircraft on property at mainline, but we have mainline rates for the CRJ900. According to this site the 12 year Capt rate at Endeavor is $87/hr and the FO rate is $39/hr. Our rate is $135/hr and $92/hr.

We have always been told by management that pilot costs are not the reason the aircraft are not at mainline. The total cost of all the personnel and the benefits associated with them make it cost prohibitive.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1717675)

If Delta were to do it's own flying, it would not put Delta behind other airlines for recruiting pilots. Delta flying being done by Delta pilots would increase the desirability and number of Delta positions.
Are Delta pilots turning down class dates because they might have to fly a 717?

Your repeating the tired old Chuck Giambusso justification for outsourcing fifteen years later makes it no more correct now than it was then; when such bigotry led to the furlough of thousands of mainline pilots.

Delta jobs are good flying jobs. If we recapture scope level of scope, then those will be Delta jobs.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1717917)

The first point was there would not be a staple. Under ALPA merger policy it would end up in arbitration. On the second point if we bring a fleet of 50,70 and 76 seat RJ's to the mainline they become the entry position. If we don't agree to fly them at competitive rates they are not coming. That will certainly make us less desireable for new hires then other options.

Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 1717805)

I could buy into that theory if they coupled the parking announcement with an identical capacity announcement but they didn't. 1/4 of the whale fleet is being parked with nothing new coming outside the mysterious widebody RFP. That RFP will be mostly (or all) replacement for ER's anyway, and on a negative pilot block hour ratio too. The RFP also contains potential 787's, but only if they win the bid, but we already have 787's for 2020 delivery :confused:

Meanwhile the JV balance is bad and getting worse with no intention to honor the contract. Meanwhile the great ER purge continues and while we split a dwindiling percentage of the US-AMS/CDG bock hours/ESK's, the once direct markets that now connect on them stop counting our share as soon as the pax transfer in their hubs. :eek:

If your theory were the case, they would have needed to immediately announce 5 or 6 growth 777's (or even more 330's, etc) for almost immediate delivery. Instead we continue to shrink our already anemic widebody fleet and the only definite plans in the upcoming RFP will be replacing more ER's with fewer 330's or equivalent.

I find it hard to believe that we were sitting 4 whales fat on underutilized system block hours all along and they just suddenly flexed up utilization on existing airframes to fund it. Even if that's the case, I doubt it could be credibly argued that the remaining 12 whales worth of lift are as well. If so, we would have gotten rid of them years ago.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1717917)

If we don't agree to fly them at competitive rates they are not coming. That will certainly make us less desireable for new hires then other options.

Originally Posted by Mesabah (Post 1717920)

Delta will start an entirely new regional airline with hand selected pilots. This solves all the DCI problems.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1717938)

Sunsetting "permitted" also achieves the same goal with Delta pilots. Either scenario suggests Endeavor's would be smart to accept a pre-nuptial if such a thing is ever offered (and I don't expect it in any event).

As an ALPA member and a unionist at heart I hope that we always put solutions which provide career security for other ALPA members first, but at the end of the day the Delta MEC and Delta management have to want the deal or it will never happen.

It's a very tricky deal to pull off.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1717820)

I dug down to the bottom of this. Bottom line is the decision is made above the Flight Operations management that we deal with. Our management executes the flying plan they are given.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1717820)

Our management understands even less about the small jet cost structure than your average new hire who came from one of these carriers.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1717820)

Our airplanes are serviced by the exact same gate agents and rampers as DCI jets are. There is no difference in these costs. Further, we could staff Delta with DCI flight attendants if Delta wanted to do so. They have no union and no scope.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1717935)

So again I ask; has Delta had new hires turning down class dates because we have 717's ?

If we get a small jet with much better performance than a MD88, 737-700, or 717 (which the CRJ900 Next Gen, E2 and C Series are) we should not assume it will be configured in some fashion to meet our current "permitted" language. If Delta pilots fly the jet there is no reason for the arbitrary configuration/limitation.

The gap between the CRJ/E170 and MD88 is enormous. The 717 is at best a placeholder with DC9 (perhaps worse) economics when the real cost of maintenance is considered. The engine saves gas in the climb, in other areas of flight it breaks even or is less efficient.

Delta, and all other carriers, are going to bridge that capacity / performance gap. If we accept your rationale, Delta pilots will lose 100 to 130 seat flying. We must be open minded and analytical.

Politically (and I'm writing this in general, not about you specifically) Bigotry is outdated and was wrong when it carried the day in ALPA. ALPA apartheid will not be tolerated by workers finally getting into the big house. The politics of this pilot group will change ... I just hope that it happens before gentlemen of our generation (perhaps not you personally) agree to outsource 100 seat flying.