Originally Posted by BobZ (Post 2433217)

How is it with all this non pilot expertise....who have this undistracted religious affiliation with spreadsheets and financials...particularly in light of the 1996 management default of their pension obligations....miss entirely the burning disaster of alpa pilot pension?

As for stock fails....after the locked up esop 72/share...converted to common...and then passive reaction to its evaporation to nothing.....galactic fail... maybe the pilot experts thought it better to not play stock manipulators a second time.

Originally Posted by Planetrain (Post 2433191)

I'm pretty sure we already have professional negotiators:

1) A host of full-time non-pilot DALPA and ALPA national labor attorneys that vet and assist in every part of negotiations that also have knowledge and experience of other ALPA airline negotiations. Many of these people have been doing this job for decades.

2) Outside-ALPA legal counsel attorneys that help with negotiations. They are experts in areas like scope, retirement, and sick leave.

3) ALPA national economic and financial analysis subject matter experts that vet and assist in negotiations. They don't fly planes - they analyze and spreadsheet all day. They are truly remarkable experts.

4) 4 full-time elected pilots that get to quarterback the process. They agonize over every detail of the contract with no other distraction or side business or responsibility. (Their counter parts on the company side do labor negotiations in addition to host of other duties.)

5) A 30 or so member board of pilots (MEC) that also guide and direct the process of negotiations.

Are you proposing to dump all 5 parts for a slick set of Philadelphia lawyers that "promise better returns?"

I remember we tried this once with a stock broker company that was going to optimize the sell of our merger stock so we didn't get hosed. These "experts" took our $12 stock and gave it back to us around $4-5 IIRC.

I'm skeptical we could find "professional negotiators" that 14,000+ pilots would like better than status quo.

Originally Posted by Planetrain (Post 2433191)

I'm pretty sure we already have professional negotiators:

1) A host of full-time non-pilot DALPA and ALPA national labor attorneys that vet and assist in every part of negotiations that also have knowledge and experience of other ALPA airline negotiations. Many of these people have been doing this job for decades.

2) Outside-ALPA legal counsel attorneys that help with negotiations. They are experts in areas like scope, retirement, and sick leave.

3) ALPA national economic and financial analysis subject matter experts that vet and assist in negotiations. They don't fly planes - they analyze and spreadsheet all day. They are truly remarkable experts.

4) 4 full-time elected pilots that get to quarterback the process. They agonize over every detail of the contract with no other distraction or side business or responsibility. (Their counter parts on the company side do labor negotiations in addition to host of other duties.)

5) A 30 or so member board of pilots (MEC) that also guide and direct the process of negotiations.

Are you proposing to dump all 5 parts for a slick set of Philadelphia lawyers that "promise better returns?"

I remember we tried this once with a stock broker company that was going to optimize the sell of our merger stock so we didn't get hosed. These "experts" took our $12 stock and gave it back to us around $4-5 IIRC.

I'm skeptical we could find "professional negotiators" that 14,000+ pilots would like better than status quo.

Originally Posted by FL370esq (Post 2432918)

But....remember our old (pre-PBS) system where you were on "short-call" twice a day.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 2433227)

Amen. Our training pay is among the bottom of the industry.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2433605)

You really think our training pay especially given payback days are often awarded is the bottom of the industry?

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2433605)

You really think our training pay especially given payback days are often awarded is the bottom of the industry?

Originally Posted by Hossharris (Post 2433625)

Yes it is.

As a comparison, united pays 3hrs a day of first year pay (90 hrs/month .... about $8k) and picks up the hotel and pays for the first round of uniforms.

Delta pays about $4700/month in training and you get to stay wherever you can afford.

Originally Posted by Vincent Chase (Post 2433281)

Yet this is exactly the group of "experts" that brought us POSTA15. Chant it with me..."PEB!!!!" "There IS NOTHING left on the table!!!"


How you could be "skeptical" we could find "professional negotiators" that 14,000+ pilots would like better than the status quo...

I'm thinking you'd only have to convince like 1/3 of us. The rest would like more from the next TA. And no more excuses like the ones you chanted with me above.