DeadHead

FTB,

Here you go, how's that work?

TANSTAAFL

Different than agree to XX rates or we will not order the acft.

NWA320pilot

We are our own worst enemy sometimes, especially when it comes to new aircraft. Pilots see new jets and think growth, and growth leads to upward movement, and upward movement means more money! I think at DAL our hope isn't for actual growth but rather that we don't shrink in size.

One thing to remember is our pay is a very small part of operating an airline...... DAL will purchase whatever aircraft it needs regardless of pilot negotiations. If we fall for the old trap of trading contract improvements for jets we haven't learned anything over the past 30 years.

DeadHead

Wouldn't that be somewhat of an empty angle to take against us?
I mean if they are maxed out on scope as is and we, as a group, don't even give them any scope relief, wouldn't their backs be against the wall at that point.

Long term planning would dictate the need for the aircraft, so their stance would be we will just shrink down to profitability. (clearly something that hasn't worked)

Not saying your wrong or anything here, it just seems like a weak stance on their end.

sailingfun

Our pay is a very large part of the operating expense of the aircraft. That is why managements fight so hard on the contracts. Remember this is a industry where a couple of percent advantage is huge. Pre 2004 pilot pay at Delta were over 15 percent of the cost to run a flight. Its around 9 percent now. Its one of the single largest controllable costs. Fuel is the largest cost. Pilots are probably second.

As far as management using orders to influence contracts here is Delta managements play sheet. When the contract negotiations heat up they will set up a series of road shows. They will talk all about their future fleet plans and how critical the contract is to this growth. They will trot out their 20 year old 100 seat power point presentation and tell all the co pilots how they will be Captains in 4 years if only Dalpa will cooperate. They will tell the Captains about how they are about to place the largest wide body order in history again if Dalpa would cooperate.
In some cases they have tied the order directly to the pay rate on a specific aircraft. The MD88 is a example. They were given a lower pay rate then the aircraft should have had on the condition the company purchase a bunch of them. This is one of the few times the company has followed through on this type of promise. In 20 years the 100 seater never showed up and the worlds largest widebody order never happened.

NWA320pilot

What do you think the hourly operating cost of a 747 is? You know what our pay runs so doing the math isn't too hard. I did the math right after BK and on something like the 320 and it took less than $1 per hour of flight per pax to recoup what we had giving up in hourly rates. Not too much extra $$ (or percentage) when looking at everything . Management would love for us to believe our pay is a make or break deal but in reality the hourly rate is a very small part of the operation of DAL.

maddogmax

A taxi driver makes more per hour per pax then we do. I know it's comparing apples and oranges but food for thought.

NWA320pilot

Very true...... We need to make more

sailingfun

When you figured out the hourly rate to have pilots fly a 747 did you add in the following?

Cost to maintain reserve pilots?
Retirement costs?
Medical costs?
Disability costs?
Vacation costs?
Trip and duty rig costs?

In 2004 Delta pilot costs were about 2.3 billion a year on 15 to 16 billion in total expenses. The math is pretty easy. Post merger today with the latest pay increases I understand we are around 2.5 billion (larger group, much lower pay) today with the airlines total expenses in the 27 billion range.
We deserve much higher pay and benefits. To try and state that pilot costs are a minimal expense to operate the airlines is however not the case.

satchip

Add to that FICA and Medicare taxes which are percentages of wages. Most of us are maxed out on FICA but maybe not forever.